Identification 3206
Here a beautiful
shotgun SXS with locks of the house Louis Christophe of Brussels. Engraving
is signed M. Hannay.
The house Louis
Christophe was well-known in Brussels until the beginning of the years 1970.
Located Gallery of the Queen, it is related to Henri Mangeot, then in Joseph
Montigny.
M. Hannay is an
engraver of Liège which one finds the trace street of Kinkempois with
Angleur in 1929. He is mentioned in the 1933.1935 and 1938 old directory at
another address, street saint Paul, 39. In the directory of 1944, it is
always with the same address but as a grocer (one can suppose that it had
“to be recycled” during the 2nd GM…). It does not appear any more in the
directory of 1953.
GP with the very
appreciated assistance of PHL.
Identification 3207
Here a traditional juxtaposed rifle of the FN. The
weapon passed by two proofhouses.
Belgian markings
ELG on
star in crowned oval: acceptance between 1893 and 1968
12 C
in vertical rhombus: gauge between 1898 and 1924
Peron: inspection since 1853
Lion
on PV: test with the smoke-free powder between 1898 and 1968
R
under star: countermark of a controller since 1877
P 1
kg???.4: weight of the barrel between 1892 and 1924
D 65
mm over 20.6: length of the room and diameter in mm after the
optional test with the smoke-free powder between 1892 and 1924
English markings (provided)
R under crown: new test in England for a foreign weapon
BNP: punch of Birmingham since February 1st, 1955
12x65: gauges and length of the room? It is neither a
Belgian punch nor an English punch…
18.2: undoubtedly the diameter in mm.
850 BAR: undoubtedly pressure
I see also two swords crossed with letters: that
resembles by far the old English punches of before 1904…
Consequently, I can say that, according to the Belgian
punches, the weapon was manufactured with the FN between 1898 and 1924 and
even before 1922 being given the absence of yearly letter (practical started
in 1922).
It was undoubtedly exported in England and was
represented with the proofhouse of Birmingham after 1955. But I am not
explained the 12x65, I want to say the length of the casing expressed in mm
and not in inches… Unless there was a passage in a third proofhouse ?
GP
Identification 3208
Here a semi-automatic
pistol of pocket, probably gauges some 6.35, manufactured by the house
Auguste Francotte, on a patent deposited in 1913 by Emile Hermann (who,
curiously, does not appear in “Who's who arms manufacture of Liège) and
Charles Parent (registered with proofhouse of Liège 1912).
Markings
A Francotte à Liege:
very well known house activates of 1810 to 1991 in Liege
Patent 19141: mystery,
because it does not appear (and due, to see further) among the very many
patents deposited by the house Auguste Francotte.
626: undoubtedly the
number of the weapon?
In fact, and thanks to
the searchs for MAX, it Appert that this gun was designed per MM Emile
Hermann and Charles Parent, who deposited on June 19th, 1913 patent 257794
referring to the pistol in question. The house Auguste Francotte is thus the
manufacturer, but not the inventor. It also designed a gun of pocket around
1912, but it is not the gun under review.
Let us note that Emile
Hermann had already deposited a patent for a small gun in 1910 under number
224179, but it does not have any relationship with this one.
Also let us raise that
A.B. Zhuk announces also the existence of a pistol Hermann (n° 1451, page
182), but it has any relationship neither with the patent of 1910, nor with
that under review.
GP with the
effective assistance of MAX
Identification 3210
Here a
revolver of average quality to five shots of gauge not communicated, copy of
models Colt, rigged out of registered trademarks by Charles Clément in 1893.
Markings
ELG on
star in oval under crown: acceptance enters on July 11th, 1893 and on February
26th, 1968
F
under star: countermark of the controller between 1877 and 1968
The
White House: registered trademark by Charles Clément on June 21st, 1893
The
Washington 38: registered trademark by Charles Clément on June 21st, 1893
Provided being given the quality of the photograph: C Clemen (T) S Arms
Manufacturers
They
are by way of a copy Colt revolvers, either the Colt New Line manufactured
between 1873 and 1884, or the Colt New Police COP & Thug (also called House
Pistol and New Line Police) manufactured between 1882 and 1886.
Charles Clément was registered with the proofhouse of Liege of 1906 to 1914. He
deposited of 1883 until his death not less than 35 patents for revolvers, guns
and rifles, and 14 trademarks between 1893 and 1912.
The CT
on the plate of stick always asks question: CT for ClemenT?
GP with the assistance of PHL, MD and RD
Identification 3213
Here a
beautiful rifle with juxtaposed barrels, stick pistol and forearm with push rod,
manufactured in 1928 (yearly letter G).
Markings
R
crowned: rifled bores, between 1894 and 1968
G:
yearly letter for 1928
p
under asterisk: countermark of the controller since 1877
PV on
lion: test with the smoke-free powder, between 1898 and 1968
ELG on
asterisk in crowned oval: acceptance between 1893 and 1968
Peron:
inspection since 1853
Crowned JF: should be the gunner Jean Falla but according to the sources of
which I lay out, it was active starting from 1931.
Acier martelé (Hammered steel): type of steel used
.450/400 express 3 ¼ balle blindée
(if I read well because one struck another thing “armor-plated” which I cannot
decipher): gauge rifle, a long cartridge with pad whose average dimensions are
10.3 of diameter and 83 mm length, appeared in 1880 according to Bernard Meyer.
A very popular gauge until the appearance of the 375 magnum.
10.1:
should be the diameter of the barrel in mm
EL:
provisional test since 1852
T
under asterisk: countermark of the controller since 1877
Mark
EB: Braekers establishments deposited on July 7th, 1927
JAMIN:
“who's who arms manufacture of Liège” mentions Jamin Marcel, arms manufacturer
quay Saint-Léonard 41 in Liege, registered with the proofhouse between 1910 and
1933.
EB
interlaced in a double ellipse: registered trademark on July 7th, 1927 by the
Establishments Braekers SA, (BE of 1921 to 1935). Charles Braekers deposited
before and after the 1GM about fifteen patents, mainly for the shotguns.
One
can think that it is about a rifle manufactured by Braekers and sold by Jamin.
But without certainty.
GP with the appreciated assistance of PHL and HPH
Identification 3217
Here a
beautiful rifle juxtaposed with external hammers, forearm with push rod, squared
"pistol" handle, lever enters the hammers, barrels more than probably to Damas,
marked Lepage in Liege. Locks and trigger guard are nicely engraved in
particular with animals.
Markings
ELG on asterisk in crowned
rhombus:
acceptance between 1893 and 1968
12 on C in rhombus:
gauge of 1898 to 1924
Peron:
inspection since 1853
LC: quasi certainly the initial ones of Lucien Clement, gunner with
Nessonvaux
EL: provisional test since 1852
G under asterisk:
countermark of the controller between 1877 and 1968
I am a
little astonished not to see a photograph(s) weight of the barrel (marking
introduces in 1892), of possible the chokes, length of the room (marking
introduces in 1892) since the weapon is after 1898. In the same way, I am a
little astonished to see such a rifle of beautiful invoice being with black
powder after 1898… But which am I…
Finally and especially, I lose myself in the history of the Lepage arms
manufacturer: if I read well “Who's who arms manufacture of Liège, the
“Manufactory Lepage” was activates of 1919 to 1961. This rifle former to this
period since is thus marked “simply” Lepage in Liege. However, according to
publicity appearing on page 163 of “Who's who”, the company exists since 1790.
But how it signed its production being given all the associations and recoveries
largely evoked in “Who's who”...
In
short, still much of questions…
GP
Identification 3218
Here a beautiful juxtaposed lock rifle manufactured by
the firm Auguste Francotte for the Hungarian arms manufacturer Josz.
Kirner in Budapest, taken
again in 1905 by Johan Pirk. Pretty engravings.
Markings
Peron: inspection since 1853
EL: provisional test since 1852
12 on
C in rhombus: gauge of 1898 to 1924
ELG on
asterisk in crowned oval: acceptance between 1893 and 1968
A badly struck marking of a
tree surrounded by the letters A and F:
one of the many marks of the house Auguste Francotte.
AB
under asterisk: countermark of the controller of 1877 to 1968
Choke
17.6 (?) over 18.0: chokes barrels, of use between 1910 and 1924.
I do not see marking for the length of the room and the diameter in mm. In
theory of use of 1892 to 1924.
Budapesten Kirner Josz: see low
Utoda Pirk J: successor Pirk J.
There is also a marking for the type of steel used for
the guns, but I can decipher only Martin Steel.
Perhaps is this “Siemens
Martin Steel”. It surrounds
crowned
letters AF: one of the many marks of the
house Auguste Francotte.
The dynasty Hungarian arms manufacturer Kirner goes
back to Georg Kirner (1781-1847), originating in Bavaria, bench with Ofen then
with Pest (one of the two cities having constituted Budapest).
He succeeded his son Josef (1809-1869), credit between
1832 and 1861.
The son of this last was called also Josef (1838-1916).
He was arquebusier of the Court.
He sold his company in 1905 to Johann Pirk
(o).
There exist many publicities of this Kirner house, just
as of the shotguns of top quality.
GP with the effective and appreciated assistance PHL.
Identification 3222
Here a
boxlock flint pistol, pistol of bronze tromblon, safety of hammer, marked
(rather awkwardly) HJ Bury on the two sides of the box.
There is
no identifiable punch on the transmitted photographs.
There
was many Bury in Liege with 18th and 19th century, of which a Henry-Joseph
between 1791 and 1813 according to Neue Stockel.
According to Jarlier/Buigné, the aforementioned Henry-Joseph is located between
1780 and 1810 (he is written 1880-1810 but it is quasi certainly about a typing
error).
At all
events, the weapon dates well from the period 1790-1810 and can thus be allotted
to Henry-Joseph Bury.
The
Museum of Weapons of Liege has a blunderbuss or a espingole carrying the same
signature: this weapon was manufactured between 1780 and 1810.
GP and HPH
Identification 3226
Here a
curious revolver of calibre not specified, with interior hammer (also called
uneven) and folding trigger, whose handle can slide in order to reduce the
obstruction of the revolver. Blocking/releasing of the handle is probably done
via the button located on the right of framework. Door of side loading on the
right. Stem swivelling in line with cylinder.
Markings
Lion on
PV: test with the smoke-free powder between 1898 and 1968
There
should be other punches between the rooms of cylinder (in particular a ELG on
star in crowned oval).
C
crowned: it would be normally a punch of controller, but it is hardly possible
since this kind of punch with crown was used between 1853 and 1877. However, the
weapon is after 1898. Thus not identified until now.
Thanks
to the searchs of Max, one can allot this system of handle sliding to Michel
Thonon son, arms manufacturer with Corinhez-Housse, which deposited in 1909 four
patents, including 220480 (on November 16th, 1909) which corresponds in the
broad outlines to the weapon presented. The latter has however an improvement in
the shape of a button on the right side of the framework for - probably since we
were not pleased to have the machine in hand - blocking and freeing the handle.
In the original version of the patent of Michel Thonon, there is a system of
spring(s) which blocks the handle in position high or low, but not the
aforementioned button.
GP with MAX and Alan.
Identification 3227
Here a
shotgun juxtaposed to external hammers, stick pistol, engravings, quality and
completion very average.
Markings
Peron:
inspection since 1853
1 kg
440: weight of the barrel, of use since 1924
I:
yearly letter for 1930 (provided)
M under
star: countermark of the controller between 1877 and 1968
Lion on
PV: test with the powder lives of 1898 to 1968
EL:
provisional test since 1852
ELG on
star in crowned oval: acceptance between 1893 and 1968
F under
star: countermark of the controller between 1877 and 1968
12-65
in omega lying: gauge nominal and length of the casing since 1924
18.4
and 18.3: gauge in mm since 1889
"Nitro
Proved" and "Fire Armes" (sic) C° Liege: I do not find them in the file of the
registered trademarks in Belgium. There was well an English version of
Manufacture of Liège of firearms in 1901, but she is “Liege Fire Arms
Manufacturing C° Ltd”.
Does
the typing error "ARMES", therefore in French, instead of "ARMS", challenge to
me ..... would be a forgery?
Nitro
Proved exists well in England, but for rifles and rifles military (1916).
Consequently, I have the feeling which these English mentions are booby-traps…
but I do not affirm it either.
GP with the assistance of HPH and Max.
Identification 3229
Voici une arme longue relevant du système Remington Rolling Block « mis à la
sauce liégeoise ». Son propriétaire aurait pu préciser s’il s’agit d’un canon
lisse ou rayé. Il se pourrait aussi qu’il y ait des marquages sous le canon (=
dévisser la vis du fût) concernant notamment le calibre. Je présume que le
levier à droite sert à démonter l’arme en deux pièces.
Perron : inspection depuis 1853
S sous étoile : contremarque de contrôleur entre 1877 et 1968
FDC traversé d’une flèche vers la droite : peut-être François Dumoulin (actif
depuis 1870 selon une source française) ou François Dumoulin et Cie, mais j’ai
des doutes sérieux car
1° selon la même source française, la marque de François Dumoulin déposée en
1881 est une flèche vers la droite traversant les lettres DDF (et donc pas FDC
comme ici);
2° la société François Dumoulin et Cie a été inscrite au Banc d’épreuves de 1908
à 1968, ce qui ne correspond pas avec le marquage suivant :
GD en lettres anglaises : en principe Gilles Decortis de Cheratte, qui a déposé
huit brevets entre 1851 et 1875, aucun ne se rapportant à l’engin en question.
Jarlier/Buigné situe sa période d’activité entre 1856 et 1887.
Donc rien de certain, que du contraire..
GP avec HPH et MD
Identification 3231
Here a
traditional shotgun juxtaposed to external hammers, stick pistol and key of
opening Top Lever.
Markings
EL:
provisional test since 1852
Choke
16.6 over 16.6: chokes barrels, of use of 1910 to 1924
Peron:
inspection since 1853
U and P
under star: countermarks of controllers of 1877 to 1968
16 C in
vertical rhombus: indication of the gauge of 1898 to 1924
ELG on
star in crowned oval: meaning of 1893 to 1968
ACCT in
a circle: should be the mark of the manufacturer of barrels Lucien Clément of
Nessonvaux.
V in
square: not identified
Choke
Bore: indicate that the barrels are chokes.
In all
logic, this rifle was manufactured between 1910 and 1924.
GP
Identification 3232
Revolver
with percussion with box frame and black powder.
The
barrel is with 8 sides with small dovetail front sight inserted and bead cut in
the amount of hammer.
The
smooth cylinder is with six chimneys.
The
stick east seems it of only one part, out of wood of walnut finely squared. It
ends in a metal cap.
The
whole of the metal parts carries engravings of sheets of vine branch.
Punches
The
weapon carries the punches of the proofhouse of Liege, namely:
ELG on
star in an oval: final acceptance, of use of 1846 to 1893.
U
crowned: countermark of the controller, of use of 1853 to 1877.
Period
of manufacture: between 1853 and 1877.
Markings
The
weapon carries the mark of its inventor, namely D. RENOTTE Breveté (Patent)
Dieudonné RENOTTE, Joseph, was an arms manufacturer with COVER LEZ LIEGE since
1853. He was a then “platinor” (manufacturer of lock) to Liege. During the
period of 1856 to 1859, it deposits 5 Belgian patents for:
-
Improvements with pistols and rifles.
-
Modifications and improvements brought to firearms with DANDOY.C.
-
Modifications made to the system of firearms revolver with DANDOY C.
- A
double trigger with departure continuous or at will applicable to the revolvers,
with DANDOY. C manufacturer of weapons.
- An
addition with the closing of the weapons revolvers (with DANDOY.C.)
DANDOY
Célestin manufacturer of weapons was registered with the proofhouse of 1846 to
1865. From 1865 to 1867, it created company DANDOY Célestin & Co.
GG †
Note : You can see another weapon very similair here : Renotte Dieudonné Joseph
Identification 3235
Voici un classique revolver à percussion centrale se rapprochant du modèle
Constabulary mais dans ce cas-ci, la crosse est arrondie. Portière de chargement
à droite, baguette d’éjection pivotante dans l’axe du barillet. Six coups,
calibre non précisé, sans doute un .320. Sûreté de chien à gauche. Anneau de
calotte. Canon en partie octogonal et rond.
Les marquages
ELG sur étoile dans ovale couronné : acceptation entre 1893 et 1968
Double p sous étoile : sans doute la contremarque d’un contrôleur entre 1877 et
1968
C couronné sur le barillet : non identifié ; ce ne peut être la contremarque
d’un contrôleur d’avant 1877 puisque l’arme a été fabriquée au plus tôt en 1921…
EF ou EP (?) sur la carcasse côté gauche : pourraient être les initiales d’Emile
Fraipont, inscrit au Banc d’épreuves de Liège entre 1903 et 1927, fabricant
d’armes, rue Monulphe 45 à Liège.
LA : sans doute la marque du fondeur, non identifié
SF dans un cercle en dessous des plaquettes de crosse : sans doute la marque
déposée par la société Schroeder Frères le 26 février 1921. La fabrique d’armes
SPRL Schroeder Frères, Max et Charles Edouard, rue Simonon 8 à Liège, a été
inscrite au Banc d’épreuves de Liège entre 1919 et 1938. Ils succèdent à leur
père Edouard. Ils avaient une succursale à Bruxelles, rue des Comédiens, 26.
Le fait que les initiales EF soient apparentes peut nous mener à penser que
l’arme a quasi certainement été vendue par Emile Fraipont : les initiales SF
dans un cercle sont en effet dissimulées sous les plaquettes de la poignée. Mais
je ne suis pas certain à 100% qu’il s’agisse bien d’une part des initiales EF,
d’autre part que le SF dans un cercle soit bien la marque de Schroeder Frères.
GP avec l’aide d’Alan
Identification 3236
For understanding well it is necessary to look at the two united series of page:
- Casimir Lefaucheux Arquebusier 1802-1852 pages 83 to 86 of Gerald Lautissier
- The saga of the shotguns Lefaucheux pages 23 to 28 of JC Mournetas
This single stroke rifle was produced by Casimir Lefaucheux in Paris, in the
workshops of the 5 street JJ Rousseau.
Rifle resulting from patent 5138 of January 28th, 1833 and addition of March
13th, 1833.
The patent and milked addition of the key of swing thus of the opening of the
barrels.
The chimneys are placed generally directly on the barrels, here they are on the
rocker what is rarer (more difficult has to realize)
GUILLAUME
Identification 3237
Here a revolver of quality, calibre .320 to five shots,
round barrel, foldable trigger, bearing on the plates letters CC interlaced of
Charles Clément.
Markings
R
crowned: rifled bore, of 1894 to 1968
ELG on
star in crowned oval: acceptance between 1893 and 1968
W
under star: countermark of controller of 1877 to 1968
C
under crown: not identified, perhaps the mark of the founder?
17345: undoubtedly the number of manufacturing
Charles Philibert Joseph Clement, gunmaker, street Chéri 37 in Liege was registered
with the proofhouse of Liege of 1906 to 1914. From 1883 to 1912, year of its
death, it deposited not less than 35 patents, but a priori, none seems to relate
to the weapon presented here.
He also deposited 14 trademarks between 1893 and
1912.
GP
Identification 3239
Here a
musketon with percussion with its long bayonet, marked GB for Belgian
government. Its owner was well inspired by us to communicate the main features
of them: overall length 114 cm, length of the gun 75 cm, weight 3.165 kg, gauges
17.5 mm, eight stripes.
Apparent
markings are
GB:
Belgian government
JP 50 in a hexagon: probably a marks of controller.
N overcome of a rhombus: probably a marks of controller.
There
are undoubtedly still other punches under the barrel.
There is
also a macaroon in the stick, undoubtedly that of the "Manufacture d’Armes de l’Etat"
in Liege.
One as
twice sees the date of 1850, more as probably that of the manufacturing of the
weapon.
One sees
also a number and the date of 1835 on the butt plate: it is perhaps about a
recovery of an older weapon.
As there
is no regimental marking of the Belgian army, one can conclude that this weapon
was perhaps intended for the Belgian customs. The National museum of the Customs
in Antwerp exposed there is a few years a musketon in one of its windows. It
would be necessary to be able to compare it to be sure of my assumption.
GP
Identification 3240
Here a superimposed rifle with two triggers of Belgian
manufacturing.
Markings
Peron: inspection since 1853
ELG on star in crowned oval: acceptance between 1893
and 1968
1kg259: weight of the barrel, since 1924
P turned over under star: countermark of a controller
since 1877
Lion on PV: test with the smoke-free powder since 1924
CHOKE 16.9: barrel choke between 1924 and1968
16-70 in omega lying: gauge nominal and length of the
room, since 1924
EL: provisional test since 1852
Y under star: countermark of a controller since 1877
"p": if what I read is well a "p", it is the yearly
letter of 1937
JS: undoubtedly the punch of the manufacturer of
barrel. Already met but not identified yet.
"Canon demi block best fluid steel" on a paper: I
suppose that it is the type of steel used. I do not know where figure this
registration nor which is its exact contents.
31951 must be the number of manufacturing of the
weapon.
GP
Identification 3241
Here a pistol with percussion with two superimposed
barrels, marked H. Petitjean Liege. It could have been used for hunting to
complete big game. The rather rudimentary manufacturing made me somewhat think
of a manufacturing of the 20th century, but which am I…
Markings
Peron: inspection since 1853
R crowned (if I see well, but I am not sure whole):
countermark of a controller between1853 and 1877
ELG on star in oval: acceptance between 1818and 1893
X under star: countermark of a controller between 1877
and 1968 and
v pennies star: countermark of a controller between
1877 and 1968: there is contradiction with the R crowned mentioned above (in so
far as it is indeed a R crowned of course…)
16.0: diameter of the barrel? To check by the owner
3382: the number of the weapon
I believe to distinguish letters EL, but I am not sure:
it could be a question of the provisional test, since 1852
JD or JF (in a letter) D: undoubtedly the manufacturer
of the barrel; not identified.
The name of Henri Petitjean is included in
Jarlier-Buigné and Stockel, but it is about an active arms manufacturer between
1770 and 1790 (even 1799 according to Stockel). What thus does not correspond
with the machine presented, since it is with percussion and thus posterior of
more than twenty years to the working life evoked above. The known parts of this
arms manufacturer are of a definitely higher quality, as one can see them on the
following link:
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20p/a%20petitjean%20fr.htm
A contrario, one of the weapons presented in the link
in question is also a pistol with percussion… but of definitely higher
manufacture.
The purists will have as noticed as Liege east written
on the barrel of this pistol with a grave accent (orthography in force since a
decree of the Regent in 1946), whereas one would have more expected an acute
accent… But it is not that a remark of (old EM…) purist… the more so as it is
well-known that the orthography of the proper names “fluctuated” with the wire
of the centuries, in Liège/Liége too!
In conclusion, doubts remain on the attribution of this
part with Henri Petitjean (fine 18th century). Unless it is about a later
homonym, unknown until now. Or of a skilful forger, using the name of a
well-known arms manufacturer in Liege end of the 18th century, since having
provided weapons to the revolutionists…
GP with the assistance of HPH.
Identification 3242
Voici une peu courante carabine mixte type Warnant à deux canons superposés et
deux détentes mais un seul chien, au-dessus en .22 Flobert long, en dessous en 9
mm Flobert court, donc à percussion annulaire dans les deux cas. Je présume que
le canon supérieur est rayé, l’inférieur lisse. L’heureux propriétaire aurait pu
le signaler.
Les marquages
Perron : inspection depuis 1853
ELG sur étoile dans ovale couronné : acceptation entre 1893 et 1968
FL 9 m C : calibre 9 mm Flobert court
8.6 : diamètre intérieur du canon inférieur
FL .22 L : calibre .22 Flobert long
5.4 : diamètre intérieur du canon supérieur
A sous étoile, AB sous étoile, J sous étoile : contremarques de contrôleurs
(entre 1877 et 1968)
Je crois aussi distinguer le L faisant partie du poinçon EL pour l’épreuve
provisoire, depuis 1852.
Il est bien dommage que le fabricant/armurier n’ait
pas mentionné son nom sur cette carabine sortant du commun.
Je ne m’explique pas la présence de deux détentes ; je ne crois pas qu’il
s’agisse d’une détente type stecher sur une telle carabine de jardin…mais ce
n’est pas impossible non plus. L’heureux propriétaire pourrait-il éclairer ma
lanterne ?
GP
Identification 3243
Voici un classique fusil de chasse juxtaposé de fabrication belge, à chiens
extérieurs, platines arrière, crosse anglaise, gravure sommaire. Marqué Boston
sur la bande entre les deux canons.
Les marquages
Perron : inspection depuis 1853
16 sur C dans losange vertical : calibre de 1898 à 1924
R et L sous étoile : contremarques de contrôleurs de 1877 à 1968
EL : épreuve provisoire depuis 1852
ELG sur étoile dans ovale couronné : acceptation entre 1893 et 1968
VJ : peut-être le poinçon du canonnier, non identifié.
La marque Boston ne figure pas dans le petit livre vert des marques déposées en
Belgique.
Il existe bien un (beau) type de damas appelé Boston, généralement destiné aux fusils de luxe, mais on ne peut pas dire que ce fusil-ci soit « de luxe ».
Ses canons ne sont apparemment pas en damas ; il faudrait les soumettre à un
traitement (ne serait-ce que du jus de citron, paraît-il) pour s’en assurer.
Donc mystère… ou tentative de tromperie ?
GP avec l’aide de HPH
Identification 3244
Here an
outline of juxtaposed rifle whose only barrels are completed and tested.
Markings
Peron:
inspection since 1853
S and V
under star: countermarks of controllers of 1877 to 1968
PV on
Lion: test with the powder lives between 1898 and 1968
3441:
undoubtedly the number of manufacturing of the barrels
EL:
provisional test since 1852
Choke
18.4: barrel choke to 22 cm of the breech, 1924 to 1968. I wonder why the number
18.4 is not on the same line as the word choke. Especially, this kind of wording
of choke was applied of 1924 to 1968. Mystery… because in contradiction with the
three following punches:
P 1 K
325.5: weight of the barrel of 1892 to 1924
12 C in
vertical rhombus: gauge of 1898 to 1924
D= 70 mm
over 20.6: length of the room and diameter of the barrel after the optional test
with the smoke-free powder, of 1892 to 1924.
There is
also an odd letter (on the left of V under star), which I believed being Greek
and which could thus have been a yearly letter. But there is problem since I do
not recognize any Greek letter (I know, a long time ago that I studied the
Greek…). And the Greek yearly letters were used between 1948 and 1961 if my
information is good. However, like say the last three punches, rifle goes back
at the latest to 1924.
According to the colleagues of the group of identifications and eminent other
specialists, it could be a question of a letter B badly struck; the letter B is
the yearly letter of 1923, therefore that could “stick”. But without guarantee
none.
GP with the assistance of HPH and PHL
Identification 3245
I would
like to thank well the owner of this pin revolver for having had kindness and
the intelligence to draw up the list of all the markings found on his revolver.
That facilitates much work and saves my tired eyes… If all the applicants of
information did as much of it, the life would be beautiful…
Here
thus a pin revolver with opened box, octagonal barrel and side rod of ejection
of the casings of very average quality, undoubtedly gauges 7 mm and out of run
cast iron of them, as one manufactured some much in Liège, still a long time
after the appearance of the smoke-free powder.
Markings
ELG on
star in crowned oval: acceptance between 1893 and 1968
R
crowned: rifled bore, in application between 1894 and 1968
J under
star (three times): countermark of the controller since 1877 until 1968
AS under
star, a plate of grips: one could think of the well-known arms manufacturers
Albert Simonis or Albert Spirlet, but it is not very probable, on the one hand
being given the “quality” of the weapon, on the other hand owing to the fact
that these initial is under a plate of stick, therefore non visible.
FG?: not
identified
W:
undoubtedly the founder.
GP
Identification 3246
Here a
pin revolver of gauge not specified (undoubtedly 7 or 9 mm) with a shield to
protect the pins. The octagonal barrel is surmounted by a band finishing in
language of snake on both sides of the hammer; the band is fixed at the breech
by two vertical screws. One thinks of the revolvers designed by the Merolla
brothers, but on their premises, the screws are horizontal. See the site
littlegun
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20m/a%20merolla%20fils%20fr.htm
There
are only few markings:
ELG on
star in oval: acceptance until 1893.
L under
star: countermark of a controller between 1877 and 1968
AS under
star, a plate of stick: one could think of the well-known arms manufacturers
Albert Simonis or Albert Spirlet, but it is not very probable, owing to the fact
that these initial is under a plate of stick, therefore not visible.
GP
Identification 3252
En annexe un exemple du marquage de canon original de Remington.
Il s'agit ici d'un pistolet à l'état mint, donc jamais utilisé.
Je n'en sais rien et j'en doute fort, à cause du marquage Remington sur le
canon.
Il s'agit à première vue d'un 2è modèle (6.000 ex produits entre 1868 et 1888)
avec le marquage sur 2 lignes sur le plat supérieur du canon. C'est le seul
modèle à porter ce marquage sur 2 lignes.
MAIS...
1. La forme du bouton d'extracteur n'est pas bonne: la partie quadrillée devrait
être ovale et le quadrillage plus fin
2. Les marquages sont pleins de fôtes d'ortaugraffe, et même dans un tunnel
obscur on voit à 20 mètres qu'ils ont été apposés avec des poinçons individuels
au lieu du roller die habituel. De plus, le modèle des lettres n'est pas le bon.
3. La forme de la tête du chien est un peu gnugnugnu, mais bon, ce n'est pas là
un critère certain.
Autres remarques:
- Tous ces pistolets ont le n° de série frappé sous le canon et sous la
plaquette gauche. Ceux du 2è modèle sont numérotés de 1 à environ 6000.
- Les Liégeois sont capables de tout copier, mais à mon avis bien peu se
risqueraient à copier des marquages d'aussi près, par peur des amendes parfois
énormes pour plagiat.
- Je ne connais pas de poinçon belge "G couronné", ce n'est en tout cas pas un
poinçon d'épreuve liégeois.
Je vais chercher dans le Directory pour essayer de l'identifier.
Marcel
Identification 3255
Here is a rifle of shooting of the family of the rifles Martini Francotte, with heavy barrel, rest-finger on the trigger guard, beautiful rest-head, hook probably serving also as counterweight. The calibre is unfortunately not specified. As there are graduations from 1 to 16 on the barrel, it could be that it is about a rifle for the shooting at long distance.
The markings
ELG on star in crowned oval: acceptance between 1893 and 1968
R crowned: indicates that the barrel is rifled; between 1894 and 1968
W under star: countermark of controller between 1877 and 1968
Peron (Little step): inspection since 1853
Lion on PV: test with the powder without smoke between 1898 and 1968
MP : unidentified
AF crowned patent : mark of the house Auguste Francotte.
GP with the efficient and appreciated help of MD.
Identification 3262
Here a sabre-revolver for cartridges with pin, of gauge not specified, marked HG and Son for Henry Goossens and Fils.
In fact, as it arises from the http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20g/a%20goossens%20fr.htm note published “in illo tempore”, Henry Goossens represented Ambrogio Micheloni of Milan for the deposit of his patent 17084 in 1864. The following year, Henry Goossens deposited itself patent 18912 also referring to a sabre-revolver.
Markings
ELG on star in oval: acceptance between 1818 and 1893
H.G.et
Patented Sons:
Henry Goossens and Fils, street Trapped 3 in Liege, registered with the
proofhouse of 1848 to 1885.
345:
serial number?
V under
crown
(?): countermark of a controller from 1853 to 1877.
It will
be noticed that the tail of trigger was modified compared to the weapon already
presented before and compared to the patent.
GP with GG and MD
Identification 3272
Voici un pistolet à percussion à deux canons et deux détentes, marqué Lambert à Liège. Ciselures sur le pontet et la calotte, avec un décor quasi identique d’instruments de musique (lyre, deux trompettes et deux tambours ; je n’y vois aucune symbolique particulière). L’anneau de calotte assez frustre me semble postérieur à l’arme.
J’ai l’impression qu’il s’agit d’une arme à silex datant de la deuxième moitié
du XVIIIe siècle transformée à percussion vers 1830 : en effet, la forme de la
crosse et son ornementation sont en tout cas XVIIIe, pas XIXe.
Mais je ne vois pas de trace des trous de la batterie et du ressort de
batterie ; ils ont peut-être été très bien rebouchés... Ou l’on a placé des
nouvelles platines lors de la mise à percussion…
Je ne distingue aucun poinçon d’épreuve liégeoise. Je crois déchiffrer les lettres TW sur une étoile, surmontées d’une couronne. Il existe bien un Toussaint Wasseige renseigné comme canonnier, mais je ne connais pas sa période d’activité.
Quant à Lambert à Liège, il y en a plusieurs.
Le « Qui est qui de l’armurerie liégeoise » mentionne Lambert dit Biron, entre 1810 et 1836 d’après Pasleau.
Jarlier/Buigné mentionne Spinas Lambert, arquebusier à Liège entre 1770 et 1810.
« Vu sur paire de pistolets et également sur des pistolets à boule de
fulminate ».
Aussi « Jean Lambert dit Biron, fabricant et négociant en armes à Liège entre
1782 et 1802. Vu sur un fusil à air comprimé de 18-20 coups en 1782 ».
Ils citent aussi « Jacques Lambert, négociant en armes à Liège avec son frère Aymard Lambert ».
Heer les cite également dans son Neue Stöckel, suggérant qu’ils sont les fils du
précédent, Jean Lambert dit Biron.
Plus loin, Jarlier/Buigné citent « Jean-Joseph Lambert (né en 1782) et
Jean-Mathieu Lambert dit Biron, fabricants et négociants en armes à Liège en
1807-1810. Ce dernier, selon Heer, signait ses armes « JM Lambert dit Biron ».
Personnellement - mais cela n’engage bien sûr que moi et je suis ouvert à toute suggestion/correction - je penche pour
Spinas Lambert étant donné la forme de la crosse typique des années 1770. Ce qui
signifierait qu’il y a eu transformation à percussion par la suite.
GP
Identification 3279
Iden 3279 garden rifle Warnant style FL 22
Here is a garden or living room rifle, Warnant type
with tilting breech, octagonal short barrel, Flobert caliber. 22 C, with
semi-pistol stock. It is an extremely common model that was manufactured in
thousands of copies before and after the 1st GM.
The markings
There is a "Belgium"
on the barrel, which indicates if necessary that the weapon was manufactured in
Belgium.
There may also be another explanation: see the attached
link, where the second photo shows the inscription Henri Pieper Belgium. When we
clean the barrel, we'll see - miracle? - the name of Henri Pieper?
The link also and especially gives the patent of J.
Warnant.
The LLH
marking under the barrel refers to Laurent Lochet-Habran, manufacturer of
weapons and rifle barrels.
H: could be the brand of the weapons manufacturer Max Neumann.
Peron: is located on both the barrel and the breech, it is the inspection
punch since 1853
R
crowned: rifled barrel, between 1894 and 1968
ELG on
star in crowned oval: acceptance between 1893 and 1968
AE
under star: countermark of controller between 1877 and 1968
FL 22
C: short. 22 caliber. It will probably not be easy to find this type of
cartridge because it is no longer used much nowadays.
GP with the help of PHL.
Identification 3281
Voici un fusil de chasse juxtaposé à chiens extérieurs, crosse anglaise,
longuesse à poussoir, clé supérieure, de la maison H. Mahillon à Bruxelles.
Les marquages
ELG sur étoile dans ovale couronné : acceptation entre 1893 et
1968
Perron : inspection de 1853 à nos jours
Choke 18.2 et 18.3 : canons chokés, de 1924 à 1968
12-70 dans oméga allongé (si j’ai bien vu) : calibre nominal et
longueur de la chambre depuis 1924
1 kg 530 : poids du canon depuis 1924
3540 : numéro de fabrication de l’arme
JF : soit Janssen Frères,, soit Jean Falla, mais c'est presque certainement Jean Falla !
JS: non identifié
D dans losange vertical : non identifié
U sous étoile : contremarque d’un contrôleur entre 1877 et 1968
Lion sur PV : épreuve à la poudre sans fumée de 1898 à 1968
C dans cercle : non identifié
X : lettre annale de 1945… mais je trouve curieux qu’un fusil
de chasse à chiens extérieurs ait été encore fabriqué en 1945... à moins que
cette lettre x ne soit pas une lettre annale…
Le site littlegun.be mentionne à la fois B. et H.
Mahillon :
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20ma/a%20mahillon%20fr.htm
GP
Identification 3286
Here is a 9 mm box-frame six-shot pinfire revolver with a cap ring. On the
cylinder the inscription "Système Lefaucheux perfectionné - déposé" (Improved
Lefaucheux system - deposited). On the barrel: "Canon acier vissé" (screwed
steel barrel).
The punches are few in number or not visible or not photographed.
ELG on star in oval: acceptance from 1846 to 1893
U crowned, two types of crowns: controller countermark, between 1853 and 1877
Under the plates: the letters AF (?), MJ (?) and P: probably subcontractors, not
identified.
It is not a real revolver manufactured by Lefaucheux, neither in France nor in
Liege where Lefaucheux also had a factory.
A revolver also marked "Système Lefaucheux perfectionné (déposé)"; has already been examined on the littlegun. be website: http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20non%20identifies/a%20artisans%20inconnus%20revolver%20broche%20lefaucheux%20fermee%20gb.htm
without being able to determine what the improved system was about: either with
regard to the boxed frame or the model of the rod or barrel axis.
Nor does it seem to be a dual ignition model, i. e. both centerfire and pinfire,
as on the machine presented on the same site:
According to Guillaume Van Mastrigt, who is very familiar with the history of
the Lefaucheux family and its production, this is a late production, after the
1854 patent fell into the public domain (in 1869) and after the factory closed
in 1873. In his opinion, it is a Liège production, very late because it is a
pinfire cartridge production, whereas the central percussion was already
becoming widespread; but the manufacturer used a famous name as a selling point.
GP with the much appreciated help of GVM.
Identification 3294
A mon humble avis et au vu du n° de série ce pistolet a été fabriqué en 1956/1958. Voir les photos en pièces jointes.
Cette arme à très certainement été modifiée en Allemagne, car elle possède un poinçon de contrôle allemand sur la glissière près des stries de préhension et d’autres masqués sur la même vue juste au-dessus du pontet sur la carcasse.
Je pense que cette arme à été customisée par l’armurier "Waffen Schwenke Helenestr,12 34454 Bad Arolsen", mais tout est relatif et je peux me tromper.
Le demandeur écrit : «il n'y a pas de vis pour la platine» c’est presque exact, il manque sur la carcasse le ressort et sa vis de fixation qui est une sécurité supplémentaire «chargeur en place», cela est tout simplement fait pour faciliter le tir de combat.
Cette opération se pratique aussi sur d’autres armes et notamment sur les GP 35, mais bien sûr d’une autre façon.
Pour ce qui est du bouton d’éjection du chargeur c’est exactement la même chose, cela ne sert qu’à faciliter le tir de combat. Cette pratique a été utilisée sur des armes d’essais P210-6 pour le combat et ceci dans les années 1976/83 par les armuriers suisses SIC/ L Crottet, et la firme Schneebeli à Winterthur, mais aussi par un armurier allemand dont je ne connais pas le nom.
C’est aussi pareil pour la queue de Castor.
Pour conclure, je me doit, à titre personnel, de constater que cette arme n’a plus rien d’une arme de collection.
Max.
Identification 3301
Iden partielle 3301 Vetterli.
Voici un fusil Vetterli modèle 1869/1871, fabriqué en 1876 (d’après son
matricule), Ce fusil a été fabriqué à 134000
exemplaires, en ce compris 160
exemplaires de préséries mod 1869 et 1198 exemplaires mod 1869.
La plaque de couche, la hausse, et l’embouchoir sont apparemment bien du modèle
69/71.
Le poinçon figurant sur le fût est celui d’acceptation de ce dernier, ce poinçon
doit aussi figurer sur la crosse.
Je suis malheureusement obligé de m’arrêter là, car dans son ensemble cette arme
me paraît fortement modifiée, voir bidouillée pour la faire passer pour un autre
modèle.
Pour faire une identification sérieuse, j’ai besoin de plusieurs photos à
savoir ; de l’arme complète recto/verso, du dessus et du dessous sans escamoter
le bout de la baguette de nettoyage !!, mais aussi une photo du bout de la tête
de la culasse mobile et si possible le calibre actuelle
J’ai aussi besoin de connaitre la longueur totale de l’arme, du canon, et la
largeur de la grenadière.
Max.
3301 Complément.
Iden 3301 fusil Vetterli.
Voici ce qui était au départ un fusil Vetterli modèle 1869/1871, fabriqué en
1876 (d’après son matricule). Ce fusil a été fabriqué à 134.000 exemplaires, en
ce compris 160 exemplaires de présérie mod 1869 et 1.198 exemplaires mod 1869.
Nous sommes ici en présence de la variante d’environ de 1873.
Modifications d’ordonnance du 12 juillet 1871 :
À partir de la culasse, le canon de ce fusil est devenu octogonal sur 75 mm au
lieu de 65mm pour le modèle 1869 et ceci de façon à renforcer la clavette de
maintien du fût.
Modifications d’ordonnance du
21 août 1870
Sur ce fusil : le levier d’arrêt de répétition, le fermoir du magasin ainsi que
le couvre culasse sont supprimés, mais aussi tous leurs systèmes de fixation.
La capucine de ce fusil a vu sa largeur passer de 10 à 15mm afin de répartir la
pression sur une plus grande surface.
La plaque de couche, la hausse, et l’embouchoir sont apparemment bien restés du
modèle 69/71.
Le poinçon figurant sur le fût est celui d’acceptation de ce dernier ; ce
poinçon doit aussi figurer sur la crosse. J’avais demandé une photo complète
recto verso de la crosse, mais je ne l’ai pas reçue ! Cette dernière doit
normalement posséder un poinçon d’acceptation identique à celui du fût et une
broche de renfort en buis qui la traverse de part en part.
Ce fusil a été raccourci par l’avant d’environ de 300 mm ; de plus, il a été transformé en percussion centrale, ceci très certainement pour la chasse.
Il existe deux types de cartouche pour la chasse : la 10,4 x 38 R pour le modèle
69/71, et la 10,4 x 47 R pour le modèle 1870.
Je constate que le guidon n’est plus d’origine et qu’il a été fortement
rehaussé, chose normale du fait du raccourcissement de l’arme.
Je constate aussi que la capucine a été modifiée en grenadière porte bretelle ;
cela est aussi dû au raccourcissement du fût.
Je suis persuadé qu’on ne peut plus fixer la baïonnette à douille sur ce fusil.
J’avais aussi demandé une bonne photo de la tête de culasse côté percussion,
mais je ne l'ai pas reçue.
Je n’ai pas reçu non plus la dimension de la largeur de la grenadière qui doit
se situer entre 10 à 15mm.
MAX et PHL
Identification 3306
Here is a Levaux six-shot revolver of unspecified caliber (probably 380), sold by T Page Wood to Bristol.
I see only a crowned G (?) as a punch, which could be the mark of a controller of the Liege Proof House (in use until 26 January 1877). But I don't see the ELG punch in an oval (unless it's on the barrel, where the gold wire is interrupted????).
The mention DD Levaux Patented appears on the weapon, but it may have been manufactured by someone else. Read the long notice published on the Littlegun website on this subject.
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20l/a%20levaux%20gb.htm
The mention ACIER FONDU (FOUND STEEL) refers to the type of metal.
As for the mention on the barrel, it is in fact the house T. Page-Wood of Bristol, created in 1876. See the interesting notice below. Note that the Stockel does not mention it. . . .
I cannot explain the two numbers, 1863 and 4569. 1863 does not correspond to a date since Dieudonné Levaux's patent dates back to 1876. . .
GP
T Page-Wood established his business in 1876 at 29 Nicholas Street, Bristol. One
report states that the address was 35 Nicholas Street.
In about 1885 he opened branches at 13 Market Place, Frome,
Somerset, and at 1 Westgate, Cardiff, Glamorganshire.
In about 1890 the address of the main business in Bristol was
given as 26 High Street, but it may be that the 26 Nicholas Street shop was
retained. The Frome branch closed, the Cardiff branch moved to 21 Castle Street,
and new branches were opened at 39-40 Walcot Street, Bath, and 19 High Street,
Shepton Mallet, Somerset.
In 1900 the firm started buying guns from Thomas Wild and
Rowland Watson, others followed from time to time.
In about 1905 all the branches appear to have closed and the
only address of the business was 26 St Nicholas Street (street re-named?).
In 1907 the business was registered as a limited company, T
Page-Wood Ltd.
T Page-Wood had promoted themselves as "The Gun Makers of the
West", and they acted in a wholesale as well as a retail capacity. They had
agents in Malta, Cyprus and Canada. They made a folding aperture sight for
shotguns, an elliptical aim corrector (which was a metal half circle mounted
over the barrels in front of the fore-end), and a fore-end elevator (an enlarged
fore-end which was clipped over the existing fore-end to discourage low
shooting.
In about 1920 the company moved to 28 St Nicholas Street.
In 1924 the firm patented a shotgun cartridge with a small
over-shot wad in a cone shaped case, perhaps this was thought to ease loading
without impairing pattern quality.
In 1942 the company's premises were bombed and by 1955 they
were trading at Old Park Hill, Park Row. At about this date it is thought that
the company was sold to Sheldon Bush & Patent Shot Co Ltd, but reportedly in
1964 it traded as T Page-Wood Ltd at 8 Pipe Lane, off Colston Lane, Bristol,
they were not recorded after 1964.
The firm sold cartridges under the names "Anti-Recoil
Cartridge" (post 1920), "Anti-Recoil Economic Cartridge" (post 1920), "Bristol",
"Climax Cartridge", "Page-Wood D S", "Page-Wood's Shield Cartridge", "T
Page-Wood Second Quality" (Nobel Glasgow 16 bore post 1919) "Wildfowler", "Park
Row", "Double Crimp", "Imperial Crown" and "Special .410".
Identification 3308
Iden 3308 pinfire revolver DAL
Here is a relatively well-made pinfire revolver, of unspecified caliber (probably 7 or 9 mm), five or six shots, single and double action, open frame, octagonal barrel, lateral bush ejection rod.
The cylinder was tanned.
Looks like there's a gap on the barrel feed door.
We would have liked a picture of the small plate near the trigger: would that be a safety feature?
The initials DAL and Cie in Liège are very interesting
because they allow us to date the relatively limited production period.
The markings
V and Y under crown: countermarks of
controllers (in use between 1853 and 1877).
ELG in oval: acceptance between 1846
and 1893
3 B under plate: not identified
The initials DAL and Cie can almost certainly be
attributed to the company Dresse-Ancion-Laloux et Cie, arms manufacturers rue
Sur la Fontaine 47 in Liège, registered in the proofhouse between 1862 and 1866,
as the "Qui est qui de l'armurerie liégeoise" (page 77) of Michel Druart and Guy
Gadisseur (†) tells us.
GP with the help of the whole team.
Identification 3309
Here is a juxtaposed shotgun of Liège manufacture which has known better days.
It is obviously not very young since it dates back to 1928.
The markings
ELG on
star in crowned oval: acceptance since 1924.
0
kg973: barrels weight, since 1924.
g : annal letter of 1928 (Year of manufacture of your weapon).
lion
on PV: smokeless powder test between 1898 and 1968
32-65
in omega lying: nominal size and length of the sleeve, since 1924
AD
under star: countermark of the controller between 1877 and 1968
D
crowned: Delcour barrel maker in Nessonvaux (Manufacturer of the barrels of your
weapon)
I didn't see the inscription
"épreuves officielles ......"
(official events.......) on the pictures you sent me!
The manufacturer of this weapon has not been identified but it was not
manufactured by the FN.
GP with the help of PHL
Identification 3312
Voici un beau fusil de chasse juxtaposé à platines. Il est curieux qu’il n’y ait
pas de nom du fabricant, sur la
bande par exemple.
Les marquages
1 kg 025 : poids du canon, en usage
depuis 1924
AE sous étoile : contremarque du contrôleur
de 1877 à 1968
Lion sur PV : épreuve à la poudre sans
fumée, en usage de 1898 à 1968
ELG sur étoile dans ovale
couronné : acceptation, en usage
depuis 1924
20-70 dans oméga allongé : calibre nominal et longueur
de la douille, en usage depuis 1924
EL en lettres anglaises : épreuve provisoire de 1852
à nos jours.
k (si j’ai bien lu) : lettre annale pour 1932.
Andrews Toledo Steel : un fabricant d’acier établi
à Sheffield. Voir sur le lien
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20t%20w/a%20thonon%20fernand%20gb.htm
Sur la platine, on peut lire Grosjean Frères, sans doute le platineur.
Il se pourrait que le fusil ait été fabriqué par Fernand Thonon qui utilisait ce type d’acier. Voir sur le lien : http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20t%20w/a%20thonon%20famille%20fr.htm
GP avec l’aide de HPH et Alain
Identification 3313
This is a classic "garden" Flobert rifle with rimfire, 6 mm calibre and octagonal barrel; it is curious that the calibre does not appear on the left side barrel.
There is only one punch, ELG on star in an oval, the acceptance punch in use between 1846 and 1893.
There is also what seems to be a mark, (the rectangle with a snake), but it could not be identified.
There is also LL, which could be the hallmark of the Manufacture d'armes Lepage, rue des Augustins 26 in Liège, active under different names since - at least - 1842 to 1961.
GP
Identification 3315
Dear Sir,
Alan relayed your message to me.
Your revolver is a Spanish made copy of the Smith & Wesson Hand Ejector 2nd
Model of 1902-1903.
It was manufactured by Trocaola Hermanos of Eibar (Spain), but other Eibar
gunmakers such as Arizmendi
along with copies of the Colt Military & Police Model
These revolvers are true copies of the originals, and are of about the same
quality.
During WW 1 - around 1915-1916 - the French and Commonwealth armies,
that
suffered a shortage of handguns
Since the French army used the St-Etienne 1892 Service Revolver, which chambered
the 8 mm "Lebel" cartridge,
The British govt, however, could use the standard .38 caliber
You should measure the caliber in the barrel (diameter between 2 grooves).
If the measure is 8 mm, it was made around
If it is 9 mm however, it was made for everyone who wanted to purchase
it, except the
We know that, because according to the British law, all non-British made
firearms had to be re-proofed in
Standard calibers for this model are S&W .32-20 and S&W .38.
The "French versions" in the 8 mm Lebel caliber were produced during WW 1 only.
Best regards,
Marcel
Identification 3316
Here is a beautiful percussion
pistol in the Empire style, rifled barrel in Turkish damask (one of the many
types of damask). 55 caliber, marked H. Gonzales New York under the barrel and
Ch. Pirlot and Simonis in Antwerp on the lock.
These Messrs. Pirlot and Simonis are
mentioned in an 1838 business directory as merchants on Hoboken Street. Ch.
Pirlot is still mentioned as owner Courte rue de l'Hôpital in a 1877-1878
directory.
I do not know if there is a link
between this Ch. Pirlot d'Anvers and the Pirlot Brothers active in Liège between
1836 and 1879.
H. Could Gonzales in New York be the
manufacturer?
Or the importer?
There is in any case no punch of the
proofhouse
of Liège.
The initials SJB could not be
identified.
GP
Identification 3317
Here is a revolver of Belgian manufacture copied on S&W, five shots in caliber 380. A very, very common practice.
It has been provided with a left hand security that does not exist on the "real" S&W.
The markings
1115 under the heel of the stock: probably a serial number
ELG on star in crowned oval: acceptance between 1893 and 1968
P under star: countermark of the controller between 1877 and 1968
R under crown: rifled barrel between 1894 and 1968
Under the plates are also the letters JD and a crowned D.
But it is reckless to attribute them: JD could be Jean Duchateau but I don't know the period of activity, so it's better to abstain.
GP
Identification 3318
This is a classic Mariette five-barrel pepperbox made more than likely by
Auguste Francotte.
Everything has been said in the following section:
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20ma/a%20mariette%20guillaume%20gb.htm
There are only two punches
ELG on star in oval: acceptance between 1846 and 1893
Crowned AF: the initials of the house Auguste Francotte
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20francotte/a%20francotte%20gb.htm
GP with the help of HPH
Identification 3324
Voici un revolver de type Kobold avec sûreté Mauser à gauche, poignée en bec de corbin. Le canon fait 12 cm de long.
Selon le vendeur, le barillet, long de 39 mm, accepte pas moins de trois munitions : le 11 mm Chamelot, le .44 Russian et le .450 Adams-Webley. Le .44 Russian doit « flotter » un peu…
Il existe déjà un Kobold sur le site littlegun.be, fabriqué par Neumann Frères qui a déposé la marque Kobold le 29 décembre 1893 :
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20no/a%20neumann%20freres%20fr.htm
Il existe aussi la marque Cobold de HDH :
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20h/a%20h%20d%20h%20fr.htm
La description du revolver Cobold correspond aussi parfaitement à l’exemplaire
présenté, sans doute réalisé par un troisième fabricant…
Les marquages
R couronné : canon rayé, en usage depuis 1894
ELG sur étoile dans ovale couronné : acceptation en usage entre
1893 et 1968
Curieux poinçon T sur A sous étoile pas encore rencontré:
contremarque de contrôleur en usage entre 1877 et 1968
Jeune cerf : peut-être une marque déposée ?
Lettres ou chiffres « asiatiques » : il s’agirait de la version chinoise du nom
de l’entreprise Carlowitz & C° , une société allemande d’import-export installée
à Shanghai à la fin du XIXe siècle.
GP
Identification 3337
Paire de fusils superposés à platines Jean Duchateau
Voici une belle paire de fusils superposés de fabrication liégeoises, gravés
chacun par un graveur, Dieudonné Pirard et A. Rouffin.
Lettre grecque phi : lettre annale de 1961
G et T sous étoile : contremarques de contrôleurs de 1877 à
1968
Perron : inspection depuis 1853
1kg190 : poids du canon pouvant tirer des cartouches à poudre
sans fumée depuis 1924
Lion sur PV : épreuve à la poudre vive de 1898 à 1968
ELG sur étoile dans ovale couronné : acceptation entre 1893 et
1968
12-70 dans oméga couché : calibre nominal et longueur de la
douille depuis 1924
Poldi Nickel Steel JF ? : le type d’acier produit par la
société tchèque Poldi située à Kladno utilisé par le canonnier Jean Falla, mais
il y a un petit problème puisque Jean Falla a été actif jusqu’en 1953. Or, le
fusil a été éprouvé en 1961…
JD couronné : quasi certainement les initiales de Jean
Duchateau.
Jean Duchateau a d’abord travaillé seul entre 1923 et 1925. Il s’est associé
avec Jules Thonon de 1925 à 1936. De 1936 à 1963, il a de nouveau travaillé seul
et en 1964, la société est devenue Duchateau Jean fils.
Cette paire est donc une production de la fin de l’activité de Jean
Duchateau qui s’était spécialisé dans les armes fines, par paire et
même trio si l’on en croit un catalogue.
Le graveur Dieudonné Pirard a vécu de 1887 à 1965.
Voici sa photo :
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/graveurs/a%20pirard%20dieudonne.htm
Nous n’avons rien trouvé sur A. Rouffin. On trouve aussi son nom sur une autre arme présentée dans le lien suivant
GP
Identification 3341
Voici un fusil de chasse « léger » (calibre 28) à chiens extérieurs, platines
arrière, clé d’ouverture entre les chiens, crosse semi-pistolet.
Les canons sont en Acier Cockerill.
Les marquages :
Lion sur PV : épreuve à la poudre sans fumée de 1898 à 1968
ELG sur étoile dans ovale couronné :
Perron : inspection depuis 1853
28-55 ( ?) dans oméga couché : calibre nominal et longueur de
la douille
1 kg 181 : poids du canon de 1924 à nos jours
Z et B sous étoile : contremarques de contrôleurs entre 1877 et
1968
EL : épreuve provisoire depuis 1852
CHOKE 13.9
JB (?) : sans doute le fabricant de canons, non identifié
v ( ?) : lettre annale pour 1943 ?
Cruzeiro H.S. & C : peut-être le revendeur de cette ville près
de Sao Paulo au Brésil ?
GP
Identification 3342
Monsieur,
Merci de votre intérêt pour notre site et de votre
question.
Votre revolver est un modèle 1889 converti au
mécanisme du modèle 1895 comme l'indiquent les alvéoles
de blocage sur le pourtour du barillet, lesquelle
n'apparaissaient pas sur le modèle initial.
Il y a peu à dire de ce revolver, qui n'a pas été
produit longtemps (selon James Serven seulement de
Production totale environ 31.000 exemplaires, dont
les 5.000 premiers ont été acquis par l'US Navy. une arme
assez rare donc. Longueurs de canons disponibles:
3", 4 1/2" et 6"Tous les exemplaires vendus à L'US Navy sont en calibre .38 Long
Colt
et bleus avec crosses en bois; les exemplaires
destinés au marché civil sont disponibles en calibres .38 ou .41 et ont des
crosses en bakélite avec le logo Colt dans
un ovale, finition bleue ou nickel. Le vôtre est
donc un exemplaire civil. Le barillet tourne dans le sens contraire aux
aiguilles d'une montre (vers la gauche donc), une
exigence militaire stupide et incompréhensible qui a provoqué tant chez Colt
que chez Smith & Wesson une vague de colère à cause
des frais provoqués par ce changement inutile.
Meilleures salutations
Marcel.
Identification 3347
Bonjour,
Votre pistolet Over/Under n'est évidemment PAS un Remington. Ce n'est pas
non plus une réplique licenciée genre Uberti ou Pietta, mais une
copie illégale. Origine évidemment inconnue.
Le véritable Over/Under Remington a été produit de 1866 à 1935 en 4
variations. Ces variations ne concernent que les marquages
(placés entre les canons, puis sur deux lignes sur le pan supérieur du
canon, puis sur une ligne…) et pour les 2.000 premiers exemplaires
fabriqués de 1866 à 1867, l'absence d'éjecteur. Celui-ci est apparu sur les
100 derniers ex de cette série.
Chaque variation est numérotée de 1 à...
Le calibre du pistolet original est TOUJOURS le .41 Xtra Short annulaire.
Seules les copies modernes d'autres fabricants existent en .22 ou en .32
court,
mais ne portent bien entendu pas le nom de Remington.
Plus personne ne fabrique la 41 Xtra Short annulaire, et je serais bien en
peine de vous dire où trouver une .45 Xtra Short...
Ce n'est pas le modèle qui en fait une copie illégale - le brevet original a
expiré il y a belle lurette - mais le fait que cette arme porte le nom de
Remington
alors qu'elle ne provient pas de ce fabricant. C'est ce qu'on appelle du
plagiat, et c'est interdit et sévèrement réprimé sur environ toutes les
planètes
de la galaxie. Il n'est donc pas étonnant qu'elle ne porte aucune marque de
fabrique ni de poinçon d'épreuve permettant de retracer son origine.
L'étoile dans un cercle sur le côté droit du bâti évoque une partie
de marque d'épreuve italienne, mais ce n'est qu'une fantaisie destinée
également à
tromper le pigeon, d'autant que Remington n'est pas italien. Les autres
petites marques autour sont des marques de petits coups, volontaires ou
non...
Poudre noire ou vive ? Aucune idée. Classement en France ? Idem.
Valeur de collection ? Nulle, sauf si on veut garder cette pièce dans une
collection de Remington comme exemple de copie sauvage. Mais alors il faut
également se procurer des copies sauvages de Rolling Blocks, et tant qu'on y
est celles faites sous licence officielle, telles les pistolets de
gendarmerie
Nagant mod 1877...
Désolé.
Meilleures salutations
Marcel
Identification 3348
Here is a shotgun juxtaposed with external dogs and two-key locking key also called Lefaucheux of very common manufacture.
The markings
Perron: inspection since 1853
ELG on star in oval: acceptance between 1846 and 1893
Y and J under crown: countermarks of controllers between 1853 and 1877
17. 0: could be the diameter (in millimetres) but this does not correspond to a known size since the 18 is 16. 5 mm and the 16 17. 4 mm. In addition, it would normally require a comma, not a period. It can hardly be a choke 17. 0 since this marking is after 1898: out of the blue, the rifle dates anyway from before 1893. So mystery. . . .
EL: provisional test from 1852 to the present day.
GP
Identification 3359
Here is a classic shotgun juxtaposed Anson & Deeley system of Liège
manufacture.
English stock, pushrod forearm.
The markings :
ELG on star in crowned oval: acceptance between 1893
and 1968
Perron: inspection since 1853
Lion on PV: Smokeless powder test in use between 1898 and 1968
V under star: countermark of a controller between 1877 and 1968
EL: provisional test in use since 1852.
12-70 in omega: nominal size and length of the
cartridge sleeve in use since 1924.
1kg402 : weight of the barrel capable of firing
smokeless powders in use since 1924.
Choke 18. 3: barrel choked between 1924 and 1968
Greek letter zeta: annual letter of 1952.
JF: either Janssen Frères or Ateliers Jean Falla.
As this mark is on the barrels, it would rather be the
mark of Jean Falla who was a barrel maker!
GP
Identification 3361
Indeed Mle 1777 basic rifle, probably due to the absence of Marking of the
lock (civil Mle Year IX) it could be a "Revolutionary" assembly (under
reserve) or a model reserved for export which would have undergone the
modification "Year IX" of the lock (civil), or a weapon of "Treaty".
Photo below of an unmodified 1777.
Those of the revolution have a "G" stamp surmounted by a Phrygian cap,
controller of the Manufacture de PARIS - Citizen "Gérrat".
Downgraded to No. 1 in 1833.
The 1777 models were mainly made in St Charleville (Nozon in the Meuze
Valley), Maubeuge & St Étienne.
Current village of "Nouzonville" in the Pointe Ardennaise for "NOZON".
Manufacturing prior to Year II of the Revolution. . . . it was modified
after Year IX (lock)
@lain
Identification 3370
Here a traditional shotgun juxtaposed of type Anson & Deeley, developed in
1875, almost centenary. It comes out from research in “Who's Who arms
manufacture of Liège” and in volume 3 of the “Arms manufacturers of Liege”
in catalogs of (deceased) Guy Gadisseur, which the mark “Sirène Hammerless
Arms comp.” was deposited in Liege, on May 20th, 1912 by Ziegler Adolf
Robert, street Sœurs of Hasque, (which manufactured shotguns and traded with
Poland. The mark “Syrena Hless Arms Co” could be the translation for the
sale in Poland of its weapons of hunting.
However, one does not find worthless trace of this Ziegler in the
directories. One wonders consequently if it had really a factory, or if it
were active in import/export.
Markings
16 on C in rhombus: indication of the gauge between 1898 and 1924.
PV surmounted of a stylized lion: test with the smoke-free powder between
1898 and 1968.
UA under star: countermark of a controller between 1877 and 1968.
Peron: inspection since 1853.
D=70 over 19.0: length of the room in mm and diameter in mm after the
optional test with the smoke-free powder between 1892 and 1924.
P under star: countermark of a controller between 1877 and 1968.
1kg336: weight of the barrel.
C: undoubtedly the yearly letter for 1924.
The marked initials of a red arrow are that of the gunner Joseph Cap.
GP with the essential assistance of PHL and GG †
Identification 3374
Voici un pistolet semi-automatique en calibre 6,35 de fabrication espagnole
et pourvu de poinçons liégeois.
Il provient des usines de Martin A. Bascaran à Eibar. Il est curieux de
relever que la marque Thunder a été déposée en Espagne par un autre
Espagnol, Alberdi, Telleria y Cia.
Comme dit plus haut, on repère sur la culasse quelques poinçons liégeois :
Lion sur PV : épreuve à la poudre sans fumée entre 1898 et 1968
R couronné : canon rayé en usage de 1894 à 1968
C sous étoile : contremarque d’un contrôleur entre 1877 et 1968
Perron : inspection depuis 1853
ELG sur étoile dans ovale couronné : acceptation entre 1893 et 1968.
Il est curieux de constater que la lettre L dans une grenade indiquant
l’origine étrangère d’une arme présentée au Banc d’Epreuves de Liège, en
usage depuis 1924, ne figure pas parmi les poinçons. Peut-être que l’arme a
été passée au BE avant cette date. Ou qu’elle a été expédiée « en blanc »
depuis l’Espagne, éprouvée et puis réexportée…
Dans le livre de Iann Hogg et John Weeks « Pistols of the World », on peut
lire que le « Thunder » est en fait une version améliorée du pistolet
« Martian » du même Martin A Bascaran de Eibar, lancé au début de la 1GM.
Le « Thunder » a été vendu jusqu’à la fin des années 1920.
GP avec l’aide de MD
Identification 3380
Here is a classic Anson & Deeley hunting rifle of Liège manufacture in 16 gauge, well marked Jean Riga-Stassart, arms manufacturer patented in Liege. English stick.
The markings
C: Year letter of 1924.
P under star: countermark of a controller since 1877.
Lion on PV: Smokeless powder test since 1898.
Peron: inspection since 1853.
16 C in vertical diamond: size (between 1898 and 1924).
ELG on star in crowned oval: acceptance between 1893 and 1968.
P 1 K170
: weight of the barrel capable of firing smokeless powders (since 1924).
D=65 on 18. 9: length of the chamber in mm and diameter in mm after the provisional test.
EL: provisional test since 1852.
CHOKE 16. 9 : choked barrels caliber at 22 cm from the breech.
JM in oval: it could be the initials of the gunner Joseph Ch. Monisse.
Martin Siemens Steel: type of steel produced according to the Martin-Siemens system (see Wikipedia: https://fr. wikipedia. org/wiki/Procédé_Martin-Siemens).
Jean Riga-Stassart, patented arms manufacturer, 288 rue Vivegnis in Liege, was registered with the Liege proofhouse from 1908 to 1936. He filed a Belgian patent for a bolt lock for tilting barrel rifles. The activities were taken over by Léon Stassart in 1938.
He also worked in export since we found his name on an advertisement by a Warsaw gunsmith in a 1928 Polish hunting magazine (on the second page) http://trofeamysliwskie. pl/admin/upload/File/LP/1928-42. pdf
GP
Identification 3381
Here is a revolver for six
pinfire cartridges (probably in 9 mm) marked Meyers Bté. Foldable trigger.
Ejector rod sliding along the barrel.
See also on the website
littlegun.
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20m/a%20meyers%20gb.htm
http://www.littlegun.be/ma_collection/belgique/be%20klmno/a%20be%20meyers%208mm%20gb.htm
http://www.littlegun.be/ma_collection/belgique/be%20klmno/a%20be%20meyers%20gb.htm
http://www.littlegun.be/ma_collection/belgique/be%20klmno/a%20be%20meyers%2012mm%20gb.htm
http://www.littlegun.be/ma_collection/belgique/be%20klmno/a%20be%20meyers%20poivriere%20gb.htm
The only photographed and
identifiable marking is the ELG on a star in an oval, that is, the one of
acceptance between 1846 and 1893.
Guillaume-Joseph Meyers, a
weapons manufacturer in Liege, filed seven patents between 1866 and 1879.
Unfortunately, we do not have the one that concerns this revolver.
It should also be noted that
Meyers sold 7 mm rimfire revolvers to the police of the canton of Zurich!
GP with the help of HPH
Identification 3386
This is a five-shot hammerless revolver in 7. 65 mm calibre from the manufacturer-importer Edgard Grimard.
Bronzed barrel and cylinder. Chrome-plated carcass.
The ejector
rod is located in the axis of the cylinder.
The markings
Lion on PV : live powder test between 1898 and 1968
S under star: countermark of a controller between 1877 and 1968
R crowned: rifled bore between 1894 and 1968
ELG on star in a crowned oval: acceptance between 1893 and 1968
Initials ELG in a diamond shape: the trademark (unregistered) of Edgard Grimard.
ING 1342: not identified.
The company
Edgard Grimard has been registered with the Liège Proofhouse since 1908.
At the
time, it was located rue Chéri 31 in Liège.
In 1930, she took over the workshops and equipment of the former Nagant company. She then moved her workshops to the Quai Roi Albert in Bressoux.
The company
still exists in Ans-Alleur.
GP
with the help of PHL
In 1906:
creation of the company. I don't have the address !
Around 1910: César Franck street, 26
Around 1914: rue Edouard Wacken, 32, Liège
Circa 1924:
rue Louvrex,90, Liège
In 1930:
takeover of the Nagant factory (cf. Guy in the Who's Who belgian
manufacturers) but I can't find a trace of it in my papers.
Circa 1937: rue Louvrex,90, Liège: central office
Quai du Roi Albert, 106, Bressoux: factory
Rue Chéri, 31: stores and depot
Around
1945: rue Louvrex,90, Liège: offices and warehouse
Quai du Roi Albert, 106, Bressoux: factory
Around 1960: Quai du Roi Albert, 102 to 108, Bressoux: factory
Around 1967: rue Chéri, 31, Liège
In 1976: Avenue de l'Energie, 9, Industrial Park, Alleur
In 1984: rue Chéri, 31, Liège
I'm finding traces of the
trademark from 1924. The dates are approximate because I
could not formally establish the dates of change, not having the directories
of each year!
Obviously,
the address rue Chéri, 31 remained current in parallel with that of Alleur
but until what date?
For the
"partial" history see :
https://www.edgardgrimard.com/
Identification 3393
Here is a small calibre
shotgun with central percussion, external hammers, key of opening between
the hammers, semi-pistol butt, frustrated engravings, of cheap Liège
manufacture intended for export, in this case to Brazil given the marking
Ordem & Progresso on the band between the barrels.
The
markings
Peron: inspection since 1853.
Lion
on PV: test with smokeless powder between 1898 and 1968.
Z
under star: countermark of a controller since 1877.
EL:
provisional test since 1852.
1kg192 : weight of the barrel that can fire smoke-free powders since 1924.
13,8
and 13,9: calibre in mm since 1889 (according to the sources so I have).
C or
G under star: countermark of a controller since 1877 (the presence of two
countermarks surprises us...).
28-65 in omega lying: nominal size and length of the sleeve since 1924.
Cockerill Steel: the type of steel used for barrels.
We
do not see any manufacturer's or gunner's marks, which is not surprising
given the low production cost of such a rifle.
"Ordem & Progresso"; appears on the Brazilian flag. See on this subject
Auguste Comte and positivism.
GP
with the help of HPH.
Identification 3394
This is a "classic" Anson and Deeley system shotgun with English stock,
probably the beginning of the FN range. He is almost a hundred years old and
we can see that he "have many lived".
A
very similar rifle has already been identified:
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/fn/a%20fn%20fusil%20chasse%20gb.htm
The markings
Crowned ELG: acceptance between 1893 and 1968
Lion on PV: test with smokeless powder between 1898 and 1968
d: annual letter for 1925
S
under star: countermark of a controller between 1877 and 1968
16-65 in elongated omega: caliber and length of the casing since 1924
Underneath the longline are probably the weight of the guns and any chokes.
GP with the help of PHL
Identification 3395
Here is a nice drilling marked JB DEFOSSÉ in Liege. External hammers, nice
stick "pistol". Barrels are relatively short, quasi indeed to try to
compensate for the weight of the third striped barrel and to make sure so as
the weapon remains "nice" to hit.
Marking
12 on C in vertical rhomb: calibre between 1898 and 1924
Peron: examination since 1853
ELG on star in oval crowned: acceptance between 1893 and 1968
EL: interim test since 1852
17. 4 and 18. 2: chokés cannons
AD under star: pass of the inspector from 1877 till 1968
The happy owner signalled us that the calibre of the striped cannon is 8x58
R Sauer there.
Concerning Defossé, here is what the members of the team found:
In the directory of 1889 appear among the armourers:
Defossé – St-Gilles, 222 in Liege
Defossé – Vennes, 317 in Liege
They also found:
1897: J. Defossé, armourer, living in Street Wazon, in 22 in Liege
1905: J. -B. Defossé, armourer, living in Street Wazon, in 22 in Liege
1908: J. Defossé, producer of weapon, street Wazon, 22 in Liege
1910: more trace of aforementioned Defossé at address above mention.
The according to «Whom is who of the armory liégeoise», JB DEFOSSEZ was
registered in the Bench of tests of Liege from 1904 till 1908: since then,
is there is an error the in «Whom is who», is there was an error in the
Bench of tests (it would not be the first time) when they Defossé and
Defossez were merged, that is the engraver made a mistake it would not be
either the first time. And they see badly not selling such a nice gun for
such a small "error";!
GP with HPH, PHL and MD
Identification 3396
Voici un revolver à 6 coups, cartouches à broche, sans doute du 7 mm. Il a
été fabriqué par Bonhomme, qui a apposé son nom sur la portière de
chargement. On voit aussi les initiales BD sur le pan droit du canon. La
baguette d’éjection a fait l’objet d’un brevet déposé par Bonhomme et David.
Les marquages
ELG sur étoile dans ovale : acceptation entre 1846 et 1893
K sous étoile : contremarque d’un contrôleur entre 1877 et 1968.
Guillaume Bonhomme et Mathieu David ont déposé le brevet 040843 le 13
novembre 1876 qui figure ci-dessous. Ils ont ensuite déposé un brevet de
perfectionnement 041286 le 15 janvier 1877 mais il ne nous concerne pas.
Guillaume Bonhomme (Voie de Liège 11 à Herstal) a aussi déposé d’autres
brevets entre 1870 et 1878.
Mathieu David (fils) était aussi armurier à Herstal, rue Hayeneux 76.
GP avec l’aide de HPH
Brevets :
028277
– 30/11/1870 Système de clef de fermeture à ressort avec
tire-cartouches mobile applicable aux revolvers basculants
029187
– 11/08/1871 Nouveau système de portière de sûreté applicable aux
revolvers
033009
– 29/07/1873 Système de pistolet revolver avec fermeture de sûreté
040843
– 13/11/1876 Modification applicable aux revolvers (avec DAVID
Mathieu)
041286
– 15/01/1877 Baguette à charnière
(brvt ppal n° 040843 du 13/11/1876) (avec DAVID Mathieu)
045211
– 20/05/1878 Système de revolver basculant.
Identification 3403
Voici un bien « drôle de pistolet », qu’on
peut attribuer au génie d’A. Barbault, armurier à Paris, place de la
République, 16, vers 1909. Il eut été encore plus « drôle » si ce « pistolet
de précision » avait été équipé du système d’équilibre à balancier qui fit
l’objet d’un dépôt de brevet (216132) en Belgique par le sieur Barbault, via
le sieur Stocq de Bruxelles, le 10 mai 1909, ce qui n’est malheureusement
pas le cas, comme on le verra plus loin.
Les marquages
FL 22 L : le calibre Flobert 22 Long
ELG sur étoile dans ovale couronné :
acceptation entre 1893 et 1968
A sous étoile : contremarque d’un contrôleur
entre 1877 et 1968
Perron : inspection depuis 1863
AB dans un dessin de poisson : les initiales
d’A. Barbault dans ce qui est être supposé comme étant un barbeau (un
poisson de rivière qui peut atteindre un mètre de long).
Il appert du brevet 216132 ci-joint et des
photos que le système de balancier qui doit se trouver dans la poignée
n’existe pas sur l’exemplaire présenté. Il pourrait avoir été remplacé par
une masselotte avec guidon réglable beaucoup plus simple.
A. Barbaut est inconnu du Stöckel.
Un Barbault figure dans le Jarlier mais
comme armurier à Nogent-Le-Rotrou (Eure-et-Loir) en 1893-1894.
On se pose aussi la question du numéro 1896
suivi des lettres AB. Ce chiffre de production – s’il en est un - semble
fort élevé… mais on sait que les chiffres de production sont régulièrement
fantaisistes (ou du moins qu’ils ne commencent pas souvent au n° 1…).
On se demande aussi quel armurier liégeois a
produit ce pistolet.
GP avec l’aide indispensable de MAX.