Voila les réponses aux demandes d'identifications. Elles sont placées dans l'ordre de date de demande sans tenir compte de la langue.

Here are the responces about asking of identifications. They are placed in the order of date of request without holding account of the language.

 

 

Identification 3000

 

It is about a copy of Liège of rifle with English percussion 1878 TOWER with one shot also carrying the English royal crown.

This weapon carries the lawful punches of the proofhouse of Liege, attesting of its Belgian origin.

 

These punches are identified as follows:

 

ELG* in a vertical oval: it is the mark of final acceptance, of use of 1846 to 1893.

 

D*: countermark of the controller, of use of 1877 to 1968.

 

Peron: inspection, of use of 1853 to our days.

 

EL in English letters: provisional test, of use of 1852 to our days.

 

Does the weapon also carry a mysterious mark N 3 13?? Couldn't I identify it?

 

GG

 

Identification 3001

 

It is about a revolver called “to rocker” or “top break” of type S&W. The lock is with simple and double action. The cylinder is smooth and comprises 6 rooms (gauges not communicated?). The opening starts by a button placed on the console right side behind the barrel. The rifled bore is with 8 sides with front sight in half-moon.  The grips consists of two plates in walnut (?) squared connected by a transverse screw and two rivet washers. It ends in a ring and a screw-pivot. The curved trigger is protected by an oval trigger guard.

 

The weapon carries the lawful punches of the proofhouse of LIEGE, namely:

 

ELG* in a vertical oval: final acceptance, of use of 1846 to 1893.

 

S spangled: countermark of the controller, post 1877.

 

Lastly, the weapon also carries the following marks:

 

P. behind the cylinder: I am unaware of the significance of it, perhaps acts it of a mark of subcontractor.

RDA: this mark can-being incomplete and thus difficult to identify. Idem for the resembling drawing perhaps representing a fish?

 

The weapon is of “type "Jean WARNANT" of HOGNEE-CHERATTE (Province of Liège) which carried out many models of revolvers top break. Its mark does not appear however on the present weapon. Perhaps' it is about a very frequent copy at the time and not signed of course!!

 

GG

 

Identification 3002

 

Il s’agit d’un fusil à percussion mono-coup à brisure. Le canon, vraisemblablement lisse, est à 8 pans et est fixé par deux "brassadelles". Il porte les organes de visée habituels comme le guidon inséré par tenon-mortaise et le cran de mire à plusieurs positions. Le canon est fixé dans la batterie par une seule vis et un crochet. Le chien est placé sur le flanc arrière droit. Ce qui me semble être une sûreté est placée à côté du chien, elle pénètre par glissement dans le corps de la platine pour venir bloquer l’ouverture (brisure) du canon ? La détente sous pontet ovale est courbe. La crosse en noyer est façonnée à l’anglaise. Le tenon fixe à l’extrémité du canon devrait servir à la fixation d’une baïonnette ?

 

Cette arme présente divers poinçons du banc d’épreuves de Liège, ce qui nous indique son origine liégeoise. Soit les poinçons suivants :

 

N couronné : contremarque du contrôleur, en usage de 1846 à 1893.

 

EL en lettres anglaises : épreuve provisoire, en usage de 1852 à 1893.

 

MB – J.D – GD : il s’agit vraisemblablement de marques de sous-traitants non identifiés ayant participé à la fabrication de l’arme.

 

L’arme porte également les marques :

 

1241 : numérotation de l’arme.

 

CM dans un ovale couché : il s’agit très vraisemblablement du marquage du fabricant. Il s’agit peut-être d’une marque appartenant à Charles Masquelier, fabricant d’armes à Liège rue de la Cathédrale, 94 (1911/1925) bien que je pense, au vu des poinçons, que ces dates sont trop tardives.

 

Lettre Q (P inversé) : origine ignorée.

 

GG

 

Identification 3006

 

It is about a revolver of the type R.I.C. (Royal Irish Constabulary) Bulldog or Puppy following its size (nonvisible on the photographs). The cylinder is with ellipses. The trigger is folding under the frame (without trigger guard!) the rod with head of nipple is articulated. The barrel is with 8 sides with semicircular front sight. The plates of grips are invisible.

 

The weapon carries the lawful punches of the proofhouse of Liege, that is to say:

 

ELG* in a crowned oval: final acceptance, of use of 1893 to 1968.

 

R crowned: rifled bore, of use of 1894 to 1968.

 

AL*: countermark of the controller, of use of 1877 to 1968.

 

The weapon carries also various marks is:

 

C crowned: it acts with my opinion of marking of the manufacturer of cylinder of Herstal.

 

320A: gauge.

 

O - P - WB - 78: markings of workshops or subcontractors.

 

5394: number of the weapon.

 

F.F. in an oval lying: I think that it is the mark of the manufacturer but this one is not indexed in my documentation.

Several names could correspond of which the most probable can-being. (?)

FASTRE-FRAIKIN, Francois, gunmaker with Housse (Province of Liège) author of 4 patents of 1889 to 1902.

 

GG

 

Identification 3010

 

It is about a shotgun to central percussion, the hammers are external and the key of opening “Top Lever”. Locks are of type “behind”. The triggers double are protected by an oval trigger guard. The steel barrels are juxtaposed with decorated central band. The weapon is equipped with a forearm not very visible on the photograph?

 

The weapon carries the lawful punches of the proofhouse of Liege, namely:

 

ELG* in a crowned oval: final acceptance, of use of 1873 to 1968.

 

E12-65 in an omega: gauge nominal and length of casing, of use of 1924 to our days.

 

U and Q*: countermarks of the controllers, of use of 1877 to 1968.

 

PV surmounted of a stylized lion: test with the smoke-free powder, of use of 1898 to 1968.

 

EL in English letters: provisional test, of use of 1852 to our days.

 

18.0: gauge in mm. In use from 1889 at our days.

 

Letter "f" into tiny: yearly letter of 1927. Date of manufacture of your weapon.

 

1Kg 636: weight of the barrel which can draw from the smoke-free powders (smooth weapons) except for the gram. In use of 1924 to our days.

 

Perron: inspection, of use of 1853 to our days.

 

The weapon also carries the following marks:

 

ABV in triangle: who could be the unknown mark of a manufacturer of barrels of rifles of the valley of Vesdre (between Liege and Verviers).

 

9290 and 37: classifications of the weapon.

 

D crowned: mark of DELCOUR-DUPONT Jean, manufacturer of barrels of rifles with FRAIPONT-NESSONVAUX (Province of Liège).

 

The weapon does not carry the mark of the “manufacturer” itself. That was a relatively current practice at the time.

 

GG

 

Identification 3018

 

Although the photographs are catastrophic here our conclusions:

It is thus about a shotgun to central percussion, with external hammers and unrifled bores "in table". The opening is practiced using a key known as “Top Lever” placed on the top of locks, those are of type “ahead”. The weapon comprises a double trigger under oval trigger guard. The stick is said “to English” out of wood of walnut!

With regard to the punches, they are of origin of Liège, i.e. the profhouse of this city:

 

ELG* in a crowned oval: final acceptance, of use of 1893 to 1968.

 

Peron: inspection, of use of 1853 to our days.

 

EL in English letters: provisional test, of use of 1852 to our days.

 

T*: countermark of the controller, of use of 1877 to 1968.

 

28-60 (read so well) in an omega: gauge nominal and length of the casing, of use of June 30th, 1924 at our days.

 

Choke 14.0: chokes barrels, gauged to 22 cm of the breech. In use from June 30th, 1924 to February 26th, 1968.

 

The weapon also carries the following marks:

 

TROXADO DAMASCO: twisted Damas, although that is not visible on the photographs (wear?).

 

LC (read so well?) on the barrels: marks of the manufacturer of barrels??

 

5314: number of the weapon.

 

The weapon most probably intended for export does not carry any mark of manufacturer as that was often the case to avoid customs taxations.

 

GG

 

One cannot give exact date but the punches of the proofhouse gives a fork of 1924 to 1968.

 

Identification 3020

FLACHAT (mais lequel) et Merley Delmont sont les fabricants de votre fusil. L'un a vraisemblablement fabriqué les canons, et l'autre l'arme entière.

Voici ce que dit le DER NEUE STÖCKEL de ces artisans.

 

 

 

Ce qui suit est l'ensemble des réponses que j'ai reçus, certaines sont en "Vieux François", ce ne sont pas des fautes, c'est normal. Ils se sont amusés !!

Alain Daubresse

 

Bonsoir Alain

Il FRAPPE AVANT QUE LA FLAMME NE BRILLE, suivant le collier de la Toison d'or le symbole est un "fusil" c'est-à-dire en vieux français un briquet, une pièce de fer qui, battue contre un silex permettait de créer le feu. Naturellement le mot fusil s'est ensuite adapté pour devenir une arme. Il est naturel qu'un armurier sans doute féru d'histoire s'empare de ce symbole.

Au sens étymologique cela veut dire que le chevalier ne frappe que si on le provoque. Il portera le coup dès la moindre provocation avant qu'elle devienne brillante. Cela s'applique à tout blasphème ou contre l'honneur chevaleresque.

Pour une arme à feu cela se traduit par un coup instantané...

Amitiés

Daniel

 

 

......Pour l'aspect historique de la devise de la toison d'or

 

Elle-même se compose d'une belle toison dorée, que l'on retrouve aux cous du Bon et du Téméraire sur tous leurs portraits, mais aussi de briquets et de pierres illustrant la devise de l'ordre : Ante Ferit Quam Flamma Micet (Il frappe avant que la flamme ne brille), et dans lesquels on trouve deux B entrecroisés, montrant la souveraineté du duc sur les deux Bourgogne (le duché et le comté, aujourd'hui Franche-Comté, voilà qui devrait achever de convaincre nos camarades franc-comtois de rejoindre nos rangs).

Hormis le latin il faut comprendre l'italien ancien -

je précise "fugile soit silex" d’où le nom du "Fusil" actuellement

on parle de Briquet à pierre ( silex ) il frappe avant que jaillisse la flamme ou la lumière

Comme dirait un Bourguignons Téméraire ....

(Les Françoys n'ont guère le sang froy").

ci dessous des briquets anciens

Briquet à battre le silex ou "Fusil"

 Photos 3 et 4 des illustrations de "Briquet" retrouvés par fouille.

 

 

Photo 8 : (En vieux français)

L'ont vois superbement bien les "Briquets Bourguignon" entrelacés

avec les flammes du choc du Silex (Fusil)

 

Identification 3023

 

They are a pair of pistols known as “Scottish” with percussion. The system with box is equipped with a central hammer with percussion. The grips is in walnut of good quality, it ends in a metal cap equipped with a starter receptacle with lid in the shape of shell St Jacques. A fine floral engraving decorates the box.

 

The weapon carries only one punch of the bench of tests of Liege, namely:

 

ELG* in a vertical oval: final acceptance, of use of 1846 to 1893.

 

The weapon also carries a mark (of the manufacturer?) GM not identified as such but which could perhaps correspond to the one of the arms manufacturers following inhabitants of Liège:

 

MARIETTE Guillaume (1840/1875) author of 22 Belgian patents.

MERCENIER G. Blegny, author of 2 patents of 1862 to 1864.

MORDANT G. of Liege (1850/1876) author of 3 patents.

 

GG

 

Note webmaster:

It is indeed very rare that a weapon of this kind has a system of aiming.

In theory this kind of weapon is rather made to draw at very short distance, almost with the contact!!

 

Identification 3027

 

It is about a small revolver with annular percussion said “Vélo-dog”. The calibre is of 6 mm. The short barrel is with 8 sides with front sight in half-moon. I am unaware of if it is striped because not announced! The hammer is with ball. The cylinder with 5 blows is long to accept the long cartouche vélo-dog. The rod is articulated. The trigger swell without trigger guard is folded up in the carcass. Both grips are out of black wood (ebony or false ebony?) and are fixed using a central screw.

 

The weapon carries the lawful punches of the proofhouse of Liege, namely:

 

ELG* in an oval crowned: final acceptance, of use of 1893 to 1968.

 

AH*: countermark of the controller, of use of 1877 to 1968.

 

PV surmounted of a stylized lion: test with the smoke-free powder, of use of 1898 to 1968.

 

The weapon also carries the following marks:

 

L crowned: could it belong to a manufacturer of barrels (Herstal) not identified?

 

6 or 9 following the position of the barrel: number of the weapon.

 

The amount of stick carries several marks of which some are illegible, that is to say:

 

16: classification of unknown origin (workshop?)

 

MR.: marks of an unknown subcontractor?

 

GG

 

Identification 3031

 

Il s’agit d’une carabine à un coup de type WARNANT de calibre 9 mm. Le canon est à 8 pans et le pontet à volutes. Le système de percussion est de type WARNANT bien connu. La crosse à l’anglaise semble être en bois de fruitier.

L’arme porte les poinçons réglementaires du banc d’épreuves de Liège, à savoir :

ELG* dans un ovale couronné : acceptation définitive post 1893.

BB* : contremarque de l’inspection post 1877.

Perron : inspection post 1853.

FL 9mC : calibre annoncé.

8,4 : calibre réel ?

1913 : année de fabrication.

L’arme porte également les marques suivantes :

RW : marque du fabricant liégeois WARNANT René, inscrit au banc d’épreuves liégeois de 1912 à 1956. Il est l’auteur de 4 brevets d’invention. En 1934, il reprend l’activité de WARNANT Emile.

AD JANSEN ARMURIER BRUXELLES (gravé sur la crosse) : il s’agit du revendeur bruxellois bien connu (voir le site).

GG

 

Identification 3032

 

Il s’agit d’un fusil à verrou à un coup et à percussion centrale. La crosse en bois de noyer est façonnée à l’anglaise. Le canon d’acier est rond. Cette arme de fabrication liégeoise n’est pas clairement identifiée. Elle porte néanmoins les poinçons du banc d’épreuves liégeois, à savoir :

ELG* dans un ovale couronné : acceptation définitive, en usage de 1893 à 1968.

Perron : inspection post 1853.

AE* : contremarque du contrôleur, en usage de 1877 à 1968.

28C dans un losange : calibre, en usage de1898 à 1924.

EL en lettres anglaises : épreuve provisoire, en usage de 1852 à nos jours.

13,8 : calibre

L’arme porte également divers marquages soit :

G13004 : numérotation sans correspondance connue.

T5355 – 50560 – 102 -  J 76 – D4 – BB : idem ci-dessus.

/ / / : Marques d’équipeurs.

Il ressemble étrangement au fusil "Gras" français, sauf le fait que le verrou est coudé mais peut-être ce modèle existe t'il dans les différentes fabrications du fusil Gras !?

GG

 

Identification 3033

 

It is about a shotgun to double juxtaposed barrels (gauges?). Locks are known as “behind”. The hammers are external. The key superior is known as “Top Lever”. The double trigger is under oval trigger guard. The forearm is not enough visible to determine its type. The stick in walnut is worked "with English".

 

The weapon carries the lawful punches of the profhouse of Liege, namely:

 

ELG* in a vertical oval: final acceptance, of use of 1846 to 1893.

 

S*: countermark of the controller post 1877.

 

Peron: inspection post 1853.

 

279: classification of the weapon?

 

6D: does workshop mark?

 

The weapon also carries the mark of the manufacturer, that is to say FAND HANQUET LIEGE, it acts of the arms manufacturer of Liège Ferdinand HANQUET registered with the profhouse of Liège of 1872 to 1920. The company will be taken again in 1920 by the Fabrique d’Armes Unies de Liège (F.A.U.L).

 

GG

 

Identification 3034

 

It is about a shotgun of the hammerless type to central percussion. The weapon operates using the key superior “Top lever. The weapon is equipped with a safety of the type “Galand”. The stick in walnut is of standard “pistol”. The barrels of gauge 16 are juxtaposed. The double trigger is protected by an oval trigger guard. The forearm is of type “with pump”. It carries a rich animalist engraving gilded on arabesques.

 

The weapon carries the lawful punches of the proofhouse of Liege, namely:

 

ELG* in a crowned oval: final acceptance of 1893 to our days.

 

Peron: inspection post 1853.

 

X* and AV*: countermarks of the controllers, of use of 1877 to 1968.

 

EL in English letters: provisional test, of use of 1852 to our days.

 

Stylized lion surmounting letters PV: test with the smoke-free powder, of use of 1898 to 1968.

 

16C in a rhombus: gauge, of use from 10/4/1898 to 6/30/1924.

 

Choke 16.2/17.0 and 15.5/17.2: chokes barrels gauged in mm with 22cm of the breech and the mouth. Of use from 2/25/1910 to 6/30/1924.

 

P1Kg31,6 (read so well?): Weight of the barrel which can draw from the smoke-free powders (smooth weapons). In use from June 11th, 1892 to June 30th, 1924.

 

D=65/19,0: length of the room in mm and diameter in mm after optional test with the smoke-free powder. In use from 6/6/1892 to 6/30/1924.

 

M.C.C.T in a circle: punch of manufacturer of barrels for firearms not identified?

 

The weapon also carries the following marks:

 

78672: classification of the weapon.

 

7975: classification of the gun.

 

440: on forearm, classification of workshop?

 

J F and C * in a vertical oval: it is the mark of the manufacturer of Liège JANSEN Fils & Co, street Lambert the stammerer, n° 4. This firm was registered with the ^proofhouse of Liège of 1895 with 1937. It deposited 2 patents for a rifle hammerless with central fire. The firm deposited 28 trademarks.

 

Mécanisme par la fabrique d’armes de guerre de Herstal: mechanism manufactures by the F.N. HERSTAL!!

 

GG

 

Identification 3035

 

It is about a revolver top break of the type S&W to central percussion. The opening is practiced while drawing on the higher pedal in front of the hammer. The cylinder with six shots (gauges 38?) comprises a star extractor. The long barrel is round with a hollow band superior. The grips are out of wood (walnut?) smooth and are maintained by a cross screw.

 

The weapon carries the lawful punches of the proofhouse of Liege, that is to say:

 

ELG* in a crowned oval: final acceptance of use of 1893 to 1968.

 

C*: countermark of the controller, of use of 1877 to 1968.

 

L crowned: would it be about a manufacturer of barrels?

 

The weapon also carries some marks is:

 

FDC 440: it is the mark of the manufacturer François DUMOULIN in LIEGE (Proofhouse 1894/1968) (more complete answer on our site).

 

F with three branches: probably a mark of the manufacturer?

 

BELGIUM: without comment.

 

LI? (not very readable): marks of subcontractor?

 

GG

 

Identification 3037

 

Il s’agit d’un revolver à percussion centrale, barillet à 6 à coups, canon mi rond et mi hexagonal avec guidon en demi-lune. La détente est courbe avec pontet ovale à repose à doigt. Les crossettes sont en bois  quadrillé noir (noyer ??) avec vis centrale de maintien. La crosse se termine par un anneau et sa vis de calotte.

 

L’arme porte les poinçons du banc d’épreuves de Liège, soit :

 

- ELG* dans un ovale vertical : acceptation définitive, 1877/1893.

 

- H couronné : contremarque du contrôleur, 1853/1877.

 

Elle porte également les marques suivantes :

 

Modèle NS 1885 et NS : il s’agit des marques du fabricant ! Il pourrait s’air de :

 

- SIMON Noël, industriel, rue Fontaine, 260 à HERSTAL, auteur de 10 brevets de 1873 à 1892.

 

- SIMONIS, Nicolas, Blegny-Trembleur, auteur de 3 brevets de 1877 à 1907. 

 

8 : il s’agirait à mon sens du numéro de l’arme ?

 

MB : vraisemblablement la marque d’un sous-traitant non identifié.

 

GG

 

Identification 3039

 

In spite of the little of images, what I then to withdraw some here:

- It is about part of shotgun to central percussion of type “hammerless”. The two juxtaposed barrels, of gauge 20, are smooth. The double trigger is under trigger guard.

 

- The weapon carries the lawful punches of the proofhouse of Liege, that is to say:

 

 ELG* in a crowned oval: final acceptance, 1893/1968.

 

20 C in a rhombus: gauge, 1898/1924.

 

Peron: inspection, 1853/à our days.

 

M* and X*: countermarks from the controllers, 1877/1968.

 

PV surmounted of a stylized lion: test to the smoke-free powder, 1898/1968.

 

P.1K114: weight of the barrel which can draw from the smoke-free powders (smooth weapons) except for the gram. In use of June 30th, 1924 at our days.

 

D= 70/17.7: length of the room in mm and diameter in mm after optional test with the smoke-free powder. 1892/June 30th, 1924.

 

EL in English letters: provisional test, 1852 at our days.

 

15.0 - 15.8: chokes barrels, gauged in mm to 22 cm of the breech and the mouth. 1898/1910.

 

The weapon also following marks:

 

J.G on the barrel: probably a manufacturer of barrels of rifles which I could not identify.

 

MR engraved with the fine gold: probably the initial ones of the first owner.

 

A. GODEFROID J. LEJEUNE-FAUVE SUCCURSALLE LIEGE: In 1885, Godefroid A. shares its activity with Godefroid N. and its brother Godefroid Gustave. In 1913 the activity is taken over by Lejeune Fauvé.

 

GG

 

Identification 3043

 

It is about a shotgun to central percussion and external hammers. The key of crack is of standard “Top lever”.

Locks are known as “behind”. The double trigger is under oval trigger guard. The forearm carries a kind of opening which is unknown for me. The stick in walnut is of standard “pistol - to cheek”.

 

The weapon carries the lawful punches of the proofhouse of tests of Liege, that is to say:

 

ELG* in a crowned oval: final acceptance post 1893.

 

Peron: inspection post 1853.

 

H*: countermark from the controller, 1877/1968.

 

16 C in a rhombus: gauge, of use of 1898 to 1924.

 

EL in English letters: provisional test, of use of 1852 to our days.

 

CHOKE 16.7/16.9: chokes barrels, gauged in mm to 22 cm of the breech and the mouth. In use of the 25.02.1910 to the 30.06.1924.

 

The manufacturer of Liège did not leave any visible mark, it will thus remain unknown.

 

GG

 

Identification 3046

 

It is about a shotgun to central percussion, hammers external and key of opening “top lever”. The barrels in fine Damas Boston are smooth and of gauge 16. The metal butt plate is with reasons in particular an eagle with the spread wings. The lock called “ahead” are engraved arabesques. The double trigger curved is under an oval trigger guard. The stick of form “pistol” is out of wood of walnut.

 

The weapon carries the lawful punches of the proofhouse of Liege, that is to say:

 

ELG* in a crowned oval: final acceptance, of use of 1893 to 1968.

 

16 C in a rhombus: gauge, of use of 1898 to 1924.

 

M*: countermark of the controller, of use of 1877 to 1968.

 

Peron: inspection, of use of 1853 to our days.

 

16,4/17,0: chokes barrels, gauged in mm to 22 cm of the breech and the mouth. In use of 1910 to 1924.

 

EL in English letters: provisional test, of use of 1852 to our days.

 

Not for ball: chokes unrifled bores. In use of 1878 to 1897. These dates are not compatible with others, I am unaware of the cause of it.

 

The weapon also carries the following marks:

 

J-B Rongé Son in Liège: manufacturer well-known inhabitant of Liège. See the site.

 

23995 and 23018: marks of manufacturing struck the weapon (guns and battery).

 

H.W: mark of manufacturer of barrels of rifles of Vesdre (Liege) not indexed.

 

GG

I you like nice belgians weapon, SEE HERE

 

Identification 3047

C'est un Darne R15 (5 symboles Darne ressemblant à un panneau de sens interdit), donc le plus luxueux de la gamme des R qui vont du R10 au R 15 ensuite on monte en gamme et on passe à la gamme "P" (P16, P17, P18) puis à la gamme "V" du 19 au 23 Hors série!

Le fusil présenté est un modèle à petite clef.(R)

Les modèles à grande clef sont des P ou V.

Pour avoir le modèle, il suffit de compter le nombre de poinçons ronds sous la frette et ajouter 10.

Le R10 est marqué type 10.Puis les autres qui n'ont que des poinçons ronds sont:

R11,R12,R13,R14,R15

P17,P18

V19,V20,V21,V22, VHS

Les R ont des obturateurs convergents à partir du R13;comme les P et V.( sauf les premières années vers 1900)

Les R s'arment en ouvrant la culasse, et les P et V en la fermant.

Le démontage des canons des R s'opère en basculant un verrou dans la table, alors que les P et V ont un poussoir devant le pontet.

 

Ce fusil est chambré en 12-65; a subi la triple épreuve à la poudre T à l'état de livraison (foudres)

L'âme du canon est au diamètre 18,2 (fusil ancien).Les canons sont frettés.

Le canon gauche choké full n'est pas recommandé pour la balle.

Les Darne d'avant 1910 n'avaient pas de canons frettés (comme les Halifax)

3C63 est le matricule de l'arme.

Les ets Bruchet-Darne à Saint-Etienne peuvent quelque fois donner l'année de sortie avec le N°.

 

Identification 3052

 

Single-barrelled gun of gauge 12

Key closing under the standard gun Lefaucheux, gun undoubtedly false Damas

Punches:

 

Peron: inspection since 1853 until our days.

 

ELG on asterisk in oval: acceptance between 1846 and 1893

 

Letters EL : provisional test since 1852

 

R spangled: countermark of the controller between 1877 and 1968

 

18.2: gauge 12

 

With the risk to strongly disappoint the owner of the weapon, it cannot in no case to be a question of a production of Lebeau-Courally because the weapon is not signed and especially its type and the quality (?) of completion does not correspond to the standards of Lebeau-Courally.

GP

Moreover the punches indicate a manufacturing between 1877 and 1893, but Lebeau-Courally exists only since 1920!!

Alain

 

Identification 3058

 

It is about a shotgun to central percussion. The unrifled bores of gauge 12 are smooth and juxtaposed. Double closing with bolt is actuated by the lever between the hammers. Locks are known as “ahead”. They are decorated with animalist reasons and arabesques. The double trigger is protected by an oval trigger guard. The wood front is of type “with pump”. The stick of walnut (French?) is of standard “pistol”.

 

The weapon carries the lawful punches of the proofhouse of Liege, that is to say:

 

ELG* in a crowned oval: final acceptance, 1893/1968.

 

AB* - S* - double P reversed: countermarks from the controllers, 1877/1968.

 

Peron: inspection, of use of 1853 to our days.

 

EL in English letters: provisional test, of use of 1852 to our days.

 

12C in a vertical rhombus: gauge, of use of 1898 to 1924.

 

PV surmounted of a stylized lion: test with the smoke-free powder, of use of 1898 to 1968.

 

D= 70%/20.7: length of the room in mm and diameter in mm after optional test with the smoke-free powder. In use of 1892 to 1924.

 

Choke 17.6/18.3: chokes barrels, gauged in mm to 22 cm of the breech and the mouth. In use of 1910 to 1924.

 

P1K562, 1: weight of the barrrel which can draw from the smoke-free powders (smooth weapons) Of use of 1892 to 1924.

 

The other marks mean:

 

ACN in a circle: mark of the manufacturer of guns of rifles NEUPREZ in Liege.

 

Figures 2642 - 1679 - 52: classification of the weapon.

 

PIRLOT & FRESARD LIEGE: mark of the manufacturer of Liège of the weapon which was installed in Liege, street Saint Gilles, 95 (see our site).

GG.

 

Identification 3059

 

It is about a shotgun to central percussion. The double-juxtaposed barrels are smooth and of gauge 16. The forearm is with push rod. The engraving of locks of the hammerless type is of type “melts hollow” it represents a dragon surrounded by foliage.

 

The punches, of which some are not very readable, emanate from the proofhouse of Liège, namely:

 

ELG* in a crowned oval: final acceptance, 1893/1968.

 

B* and J*: countermarks from the controllers, 1877/1968.

 

Peron: inspection, of use of 1853 to our days.

 

16C in a rhombus: gauge, 1898/1924.

 

PV surmounted of a stylized lion: test with the smoke-free powder. 1898/1968.

 

EL in English letters: provisional test, of use of 1852 to our days.

 

POK997, 8: weight of the barrel which can draw from the smoke-free powders (smooth weapons).

 

D = illegible: length of the room in mm and diameter in mm after optional test with the smoke-free powder. 1892/1924.

 

???/17.0 (Illegible): chokes barrels, gauged in mm with 22cm of the breech and the mouth. 1910/1924.

 

The weapon also carries engraved to the fine gold, marking EPREUVE A LA POUDRE PYROXILEE (Tested with powder pyroxillee), this kind of powder is a modern powder by comparison of "Black Powder".

 

The weapon does not seem to carry any marking of manufacturer,

 

GG

 

Identification 3061

 

It is about a banal pocket revolver of pin of the Lefaucheux type made in Liege in thousands of specimens. The nonalveolate cylinder with six blows is notched for the cartridges with pin. This one is accessible for the loading by the right back door. It carries an engraving of vineleaves. The barrel is round and probably striped with a front sight rectangular. The hammer is with head punt to strike the pins. The metal rod is of standard “nail”. The trigger is folding without trigger guard. The two plates seem to be out of ebony (or false-ebony) and are connected by a central screw to ears.

 

This part carries the punches of the proofhouse of Liege, that is to say:

 

ELG* in a vertical oval: final acceptance, of use of 1846 to 1993.

 

Z crowned: countermark of the controller, of use of 1853 to 1877.

 

It also carries a horizontal oval mark with not very readable letters

(P.D - Data base - etc??) We could not identify this manufacturer.

 

GG

 

Identification 3074

Percussion shooting carbine made by Augste Francotte in Liège, Belgium.

Proofmark of the Proofbank of Liège (ELG in oval) and AF from Francotte.

The calibre is unknown due through the lack of information from the owner.

We use the name “shooting carbine” because of the sighting, a little more elaborate than the classic back-sight, although it is quite crude (in our XXIst century eyes anyway).

This carbine should have been made between the years 1820/1830 and 1860/1870.

There is quite an anachronism between this period of fabrication, and the prize small plates screwed on the butt. The plates, in Danish, come from a first prize given by the Home Ministry in 1871 and from a prize given by the city of Fredericia (Jutland) in 1876. But we have to realize that at this time, metallic cartridges were already used.

First we thought that it was a prize carbine given by the Danish Home Ministry in 1871. But how can the plate form Fredericia in 1876 then  been explained? And this plate is followed by another one (also in 1876) with, maybe, the name of the shooter. We also noticed that the screws of the plates are different.

Everything considered, it could be a shooting carbine used – succesfully – up to 1876 by a shooter who got a prize from the Home Ministry in 1871 and another one from the city of Fredericia in 1876.

Anyway, it is a reality that Belgian arms were much used and appreciated far from Belgium.

We had contact with the (very interesting) museum of Arms of Copenhague but they could not help us. In the XIXth century, shooting was very popular, there were a lot of competitions because shooting was then seen as a “national” sport (also for the defence of the country, of course… times change…). And shooting prizes were very various!

Let us also remember that Auguste Francotte made revolvers fort the Danish Cavalry and Danish officers.

GP

 

Identification 3075

 

Un classique fusil de chasse juxtaposé hammerless à fermeture à clé « top lever ».

63975 est quasi certainement le n° de l’arme.

 

Les poinçons :

 

EL en lettres anglaises : épreuve provisoire depuis 1852

 

Perron : poinçon d’inspection en vigueur depuis le 16 juin 1853 jusqu’à nos jours

 

PV  sous lion : épreuve à la poudre vive entre le 4 octobre 1898 et le 26 février 1968

 

12 C dans un losange : calibre 12 (en usage entre 1898 et 1924)

65 mm correspond à la longueur de la chambre et donc des munitions.

 

X étoilé et V étoilé : contremarques de contrôleurs en usage entre 1877 et 1968

 

Poinçon ELG dans un ovale sous couronne : acceptation définitive en usage du 11 juillet 1893 à 1968.

 

Acier Cockerill : le type d’acier utilisé pour les canons.

 

P 1 kg 288,3 : poids du canon, en vigueur depuis le 30 juin 1924

 

AF couronné : poinçon d’Auguste Francotte.

 

Il est signé « Auguste Francotte Breveté à Liège » sur le canon. Voir le site littlegun.be (armes belges, artisans identifiés) pour l’histoire de cette grande dynastie armurière liégeoise qui a produit tant des armes civiles que militaires pendant un peu moins de deux siècles.

 

GP

 

Le recoupement théorique des différentes dates donne une date de fabrication de 1924 mais sans garantie aucune. Aucune archive ne reprends les N° de série des armes de Francotte par date de fabrication !!

Alain Daubresse

 

Identification 3076

 

Rifle with two barrels, key top lever, with locks, in calibre 9,3 x 74R with stick in walnut shaped and forearm with psh button fabricated by the society Magilissen, successor to Antoine Defourny, engraved by F. DUPONT (signature under the key).

Bradawls:

Peron (steps): applied examination from 1853 to our days.

 

PV in oval crowned: punch of acceptance for the lively powder since February 26th, 1968.

 

2880 kg cm2: undoubtedly the pressure supported by cannons.

 

0004:  serial number of the weapon is more than probably.

 

He should normally have other marks again there on barrels, and also annual letter.

 

SL could be put in touch with Saroléa in Haccourt, but without guarantee.

 

Another arms with an identical signature of F. DUPONT is known to us: it is about a gun of Augustin Dardenne (see on the site littlegun. be). This gun is dated of 1959.

We do not have other information on Magilissen, except that a "garnisseur" of the same name existed in a not known period.

GP

 

Identification 3084

Hello Mr Bradstreet,

Here is the list of all patents of G. Zeller in Belgium as known for the moment.

The patents of G. Zeller still exist at the “Office de la Propriété intellectuelle” in Brussels ( http://www.1819.be/fr/organisations/office-belge-de-la-propriete-intellectuelle-opri ) and whether they can be consulted and copied.

GP & Max

I can ask all these patent to the "Office de la propriété Intellectuelle" but it is not free, it requires 3 euros per patent. (In high resolution)

Alain

1873

033269

1873/09/17

ZELLER G.

Rue de Launay, 2 MOLENBEEK ST-JEAN (B)

Perf

Système de fusil se chargeant par la culasse (brvt ppal n° 028356 du 31/12/1870)

1873

032054

1873/02/21

ZELLER G.

Rue de Launay, 2 MOLENBEEK ST-JEAN (B)

Perf

Modifications apportées au fusil se chargeant par la culasse (brvt ppal n° 028356 du 31/12/1870)

1871

029405

1871/09/28

ZELLER G.

Chaussée de Ninove, 21 BRUXELLES (B)

Perf

Fusil se chargeant par la culasse (brvt ppal n° 028356 du 31/12/1870)

1871

028795

1871/05/19

ZELLER G.

BRUXELLES (B)

Perf

Modifications apportées au fusil se chargeant par la culasse (brvt ppal n° 028356 du 31/12/1870)

1872

030334

1872/04/04

ZELLER G.

Rue de Launay, 2 MOLENBEEK ST-JEAN (B)

Perf

Fusil se chargeant par la culasse (brvt ppal n° 028356 du 31/12/1870)

1877

043476

1877/11/06

ZELLER G.

Fuabourg Vivegnis, 161 LIEGE (B)

Inv.

Fusil se chargeant par la culasse

1871

028941

1871/06/24

ZELLER G.

BRUXELLES (B)

Perf

Modifications apportées au fusil se chargeant par la culasse (brvt ppal n° 028356 du 31/12/1870)

1870

028220

1870/11/12

ZELLER G.

SAINT JOSSE-TEN-NOODE (B)

Inv.

Système de fusil se chargeant par la culasse

1873

033046

1873/08/05

ZELLER G.

Rue de Launay, 2 MOLENBEEK ST-JEAN (B)

Perf

Modifications apportées au fusil se chargeant par la culasse (brvt ppal n° 028356 du 31/12/1870)

1872

031136

1872/09/04

ZELLER G.

Rue de Launay, 2 MOLENBEEK ST-JEAN (B)

Perf

Modifications apportées au fusil se chargeant par la culasse (brvt ppal n° 028356 du 31/12/1870)

1870

028356

1870/12/31

ZELLER G.

Rue de la Senne, 75 BRUXELLES (B)

Inv.

Fusil se chargeant par la culasse

 

 

Identification 3085

 

Pistolet espagnol Imperial

Pistolet espagnol modèle « Imperial » en calibre 6,35 mm fabriqué pour ou par la société José Aldazabal d’Eibar, gravé or et plaquettes de nacre.

Aucune photo d’éventuels poinçons ni de marquage.

La région d’Eibar a inondé le marché de pistolets généralement bon marché et de qualité souvent décriée, surtout avant, pendant et après la 1GM. Près d’un million de pistolets type Ruby et de copies de revolvers (notamment Colt et S&W) en 8 mm ont ainsi été vendus à la France pendant la 1GM.

L’arme en question n’a évidemment pas de destination militaire puisqu’il s’agit d’un pistolet en calibre 6,35 mm souvent appelé « type Eibar » (une copie très simplifiée du Browning 1906 ?).

Selon Ian V. Hogg et John Weeks dans leur livre « Pistols of the World », il semble que les pistolets « Imperial » aient été fabriqués par Tomas de Urizar y Cia d’Eibar pour le compte de la société Hijos de José Aldazabal dont les initiales JA apparaissent sur les plaquettes.

Il y a une sûreté à l’arrière du bâti et un bouton de démontage juste au-dessus de la détente.

L’arme a été gravée or dans le style espagnol (Tolède) typique.

La société Urizar d’Eibar a été active entre 1900 et 1921. Le modèle Imperial daterait de 1914.

A noter que la marque « Imperial » a aussi été déposée par les firmes espagnoles suivantes :

Gregorio Bolumburu et Toribio Zulaica (dépôt officiel n° 20552)

En annexe des photos de pistolets Imperial 1910 et 1914 en version "populaire". Le modèle 1914 est en effet identique au modèle gravé (il est vrai sans l’inscription sur la culasse).

GP et MD

 

Identification 3087

 

Il s’agit d’une fabrication “récente” (= arme de traite ou en tout cas d’export ?) d’un fusil à deux coups à percussion, avec des canons en faux damas, une "décoration sommaire" (on n’ose pas dire une gravure) sur les platines arrière, une boîte à amorces dans la crosse. L’inscription (en espagnol ou portugais?) sur les canons n’est pas lisible.

Les poinçons.

L’origine liégeoise ne fait pas de doute.

Perron : 1853 à nos jours

V sous astérisque : contremarque de 1877 à 1968

G sous astérisque : contremarque de 1877 à 1968

EL en lettres anglaises : épreuve provisoire de 1852 à nos jours

13.0 : calibre en mm

ELG dans un ovale : poinçon d'acceptation définitive entre 1846 et 1893

D sous couronne : contremarque d’un contrôleur ?

JD dans ovale : peut-être Jean Duchateau mais sans garantie aucune.

MD dans losange allongé : inconnu jusqu’à présent

 

Il s’agit d’une arme bon marché et de faible calibre, sans doute destinée à l’exportation, peut-être vers l’Amérique du Sud.

GP

 

Identification 3092

 

It is a completely collapsible rifle with English stick, with opening to side key of Leclercq type gauges 12 mm of manufacturing of Liège of them. “The” rifle of poacher by excellence.

The weapon seems in good state, having preserved a good part of its marbling and bronzing of its barrel, octagonal first, then round.

One manufactured thousands of specimens of this kind of weapon, with one or two barrels (generally juxtaposed), in a multiplicity of gauges, especially in .410 or 12 mm like this specimen.

She is signed MEIZER-DUQUENNE LIEGE on the barrel.

One finds the punches usual of the proofhouse of Liège:

The peron (step) : punch of inspection of 1853 to our days

PV under lion: punch of test to the sharp (black) powder, used between on October 4th, 1898 and before February 26th, 1968

G under star: countermark of the controller enters on January 27th, 1877 and before February 26th, 1968.

10.4 are the gauge in mm (what corresponds to the 12 mm or .410)

EL in english letters: provisional test, use since December 21st, 1852

0 kg610 is the weight of the barrel.

The Greek letter "Lambda" is the yearly letter of 1954. Year of manufacture of your weapon.

ELG in a crowned oval is the punch of acceptance since July 11th, 1893 until before February 26th, 1968.

410.65 in the Greek letter Omega gives the nominal gauge and the length of the room, of use since June 30th, 1924.

232 is undoubtedly the serial number of the weapon.

The house MEIZER-DUQUENNE is not taken again in “Who's who arms manufacturer of Liège”, nor in the works of our late friend Guy Gadisseur on publicity in arms manufacture of Liège. One finds via Internet some weapons of this house, of which a rifle of great hunting of the Mauser type on the site littlegun.be, and other rifles Leclercq type.

GP

 

Identification 3093

 

It is here about a revolver in 5 shots, not specified calibre, copies the model British Bull-Dog of Philip Webley & Son (see annexed document) by an unknown Belgian producer and with good reason:

 

On May 23rd, 1881, the firm P. Webley and Son of Birmingham (GB) had deposited in Belgium a trademark «THE BRITISH BULL DOG».

 

Anecdote: it would seem that the American President James A. Garfield (who will die from his wounds) is assassinated (7/2/1881) by one of these Belgian copies of British Bull-dog in .44.

 

His design was use as a basis in WEBLEY RIC (Royal Irish Constabulary).

 

He carries the punches of the proofhouse of Liège:

 

Spangled ELG in an oval: Applied Acceptance from 1846 till 1893.

 

R under star: pass of the inspector from 1877 till 1968.

 

Estimate of the date of manufacture, between 1877 and 1898.

 

The Belgian producer having left draws no, he will remain therefore anonymous!!

 

HPH

 

 

Identification 3094

 

Carabine de jardin de fabrication liégeoise, habituellement appelée Warnant, à culasse longue, canon octogonal et crosse à poignée pistolet en 9 mm Flobert. Arme très courante pendant la première moitié du XXe siècle, fabriquée dans plusieurs calibres, les plus courants étant le 6 et le 9 mm Flobert et le .410 (12 mm) à percussion centrale.

Les poinçons : FL 9 mm C sur le côté gauche du canon, indiquant le 9 mm Flobert (percussion annulaire, à balle ou plombs).

ELG dans ovale sous couronne : poinçon d’acceptation post 1893.

Perron : inspection en usage de 1853 à nos jours.

AL* : contremarque du contrôleur, en usage de 1877 à 1968

L'arme a donc été fabriquée entre 1893 et 1968

 

La marque AS couronnée pourrait donc appartenir à Simonis albert ou Spirlet Albert sans aucune certitude.

D'autant que la marque de Spirlet était souvent dans un losange !!

En ce qui concerne la marque JR, il existe bien un JR correspondant un J. Rosseel de Tilff mais comme il était actif vers 1948, cela nous semble peu vraisemblable (mais pas tout à fait exclu non plus).

8.4 est le diamètre du canon.

976 est sans doute le numéro de fabrication de cette arme qui a été produite à des milliers d’exemplaires par de nombreux fabricants.

Manque à gauche de la culasse le bouton permettant de l’ouvrir facilement.

 GP

 

Identification 3096

 

It is here about a revolver in 5 blows, calibre .450 (455), carrying the mark "American Settler" deposited by Lucien Clement on January 26th, 1899.

Lucien Clement, producer of weapon in Liege, street Maghin 60 then street Chéri 47 (the same addresses as Charles Clement).

I think that this weapon was rather intended for the market of the Africain colonies: Belgian Congo (American Settler = American colonist).

 

He carries the marks of the proofhouse of Liege or :

 

Spangled ELG in oval crowned: Applied Acceptance of from 1893.

 

B spangled: pass of the inspector from January 27th, 1877.

 

R (a little bigger than that of the inspector) crowned: mark of check on the rifled handguns from January 30th, 1894 till February 26th, 1968.

 

24: Number of the weapon, nevertheless it is rather about a number allowing to the filter to reconstruct the weapon.

 

Estimate of the date of manufacture, between 1899 and 1913 (the theoretical end of the black powder).

 

HPH

 

Identification 3097

 

It is here about a pocket revolver in 6 shots, calibre .320 (7,65 mm), of type Baby or Puppy.

In the absence of definite marking, it is impossible to identify the producer, this type of weapon was manufactured in several thousand copies by dozens producers.

 

Letters " EP « and " D " would be initials belonging to the producer (artisan or worker) having fabricated the parts where they appear.

 

He carries the mark of the proofhouse of Liege or :

 

Spangled ELG in oval crowned: Applied Acceptance of from 1893.

 

Spangled AT: pass of the inspector from January 27th, 1877.

 

R (a little bigger than that of the inspector) crowned: mark of check on the rifled handguns from January 30th, 1894 till February 26th, 1968.

 

37: Number of the weapon, nevertheless it is rather about a number allowing to the filter to reconstruct the weapon.

 

Estimate of the date of manufacture, between 1894 and 1913 (theoretical end of the black powder).

 

HPH

 

Identification 3098

 

Your revolver is a revolver of the Lefaucheux type says “open frame”, i.e. the top is not fixed at the part postpones weapon, only the low part of the carcass is maintained by a screw with the front part.

 

Owing to the fact that only a point of fixing maintained the barrel and its console with the remainder of the weapon, these small revolvers were rather fragile.

 

In the area of Liege hundreds of craftsmen manufactured these weapons per thousand for sale it in many countries.

 

Its ammunition is a cartridge “pinfire” which existed in gauge 5, 7, 9 and 12mm.

Until the invention of the cartridge with central percussion the ammunition with pin were extremely appreciated.

The calibre more the current is the 7mm, which is probably the case of yours.

 

This weapon carries only two punches of the proofhouse of Liege (Belgium) which one can define as follows:

 

Ø  Spangled ELG in an oval:       final acceptance, of use of 1846 to 1893.

 

Ø  Letter (unreadable) spangled: countermark of controller post 1877.

 

Therefore, period of manufacture between 1877 and 1893.

The letters "HH" "JM" and "IF" on the metal skeleton are marks of sub contractor.

The manufacturer will remain anonymous because no marking is visible, reassure you that however was often the case on these weapons of poor quality.

 

Alain

 

Identification 3099

 

It is a shotgun juxtaposed of type Anson and Deeley of gauge 16, with a pistol stick with cheek and a forearm with push rod, with key of opening top rising.

 

Markings

 

Cockerill steel: type of steel used to manufacture the guns.

 

16-65 in an omega: gauge 16 and length of the room 65 mm.

 

ELG on asterisk in a crowned oval: test enters on July 11th, 1893 and 1968

 

Peron (step): inspection since 1853.

 

EL in English letters : Provisional test since 1852.

 

Choke 16.4

 

Z under star: countermark of the controller of use of 1877 to 1968.

 

Greek letter delta (without warranty): yearly letter of 1958, which could thus be the year of the manufacturing of this rifle.

 

I or JC could be the brand of the manufacturer of barrels Joseph Cap.

 

JF: perhaps the initial ones of Janssen Frères or the Workshops J. Falla.

 

Lion on PV: test with the smoke-free powder enters on October 4th, 1898 and on February 26th, 1968.

 

1kg217 is the weight of the barrel which can draw from the smoke-free powders (since June 30th, 1924 until our days).

 

N in one ecu is the Czech punch for the individual test of the unrifled bore weapons charged by the breech with the smoke-free powder.

 

The presence of the Czech punch seems to be the proof that the weapon was represented with the test in this country.

 

GP

 

Identification 3100

 

Is it about a long rifle of gauge 10 (canardière?) juxtaposed with external hammers, stick half-pistol and single forearm, marked Imperial Belgium Damascus on the tape between the barrels and Janssen Arms C° on the lock.

 

Markings

 

EL in English letters: provisional test since 1852.

 

Peron: inspection since 1853.

 

V under star: countermark of the controller since 1877.

 

10 C in vertical rhombus: gauge weapon.

 

19.0: gauge in mm: it is a little strange insofar as a gauge 10 fact normally 19.7 mm; but as one can also read registration choke bored, this undoubtedly explains that.

 

ELG in oval under crown: acceptance between 1893 and 1968.

 

36976 undoubtedly the number of the weapon.

 

The weapon is obviously of quality poor and the barrels are certainly not in Damas, notwithstanding commercial registration on the tape. This commercial registration is allotted either to Henri Pieper (of which rifles were sold with this registration in the United States via T. Barker), or in Janssen Fils and C°, which is more probable in the case which occupies to us being given the presence of Janssen Arms C° on the turntable.

It is thus undoubtedly about one of these thousands - even hundreds of thousands - rifles of Liège of less quality exported towards the United States before the 1e World war, sold at the time between 10 and 20 dollars, while a rifle of quality was sold minimum 100 dollars.

 

GP

 

Identification 3101

 

It is about a single-barrelled gun of gauge 4 with central percussion, closing by key on the trigger guard and with external dog on a back turntable. The gun seems to be in Damas.

 

Markings

 

V under star: countermark of the controller since 1877.

 

EL in English letters: provisional test since 1952.

 

Peron (Little step): inspection since 1853.

 

ELG in oval under crown: acceptance between 1893 and 1968

 

4 C in a vertical rhombus: gauge weapon (either 26 mm).

 

AP under star: countermark of the controller since 1877.

 

JJ: not identified. Admittedly, the Jacquemart Workshops signed JJ, but their working life (end of the Forties) does not correspond in our opinion to that of the weapon.

 

GM (?) under crown: not identified.

 

Choke 216/232: choké barrel: cal in mm to 22 cm of the breech and the mouth. In use from February 1910 to June 1924.

The weapon was thus probably manufactured between 1910 and 1924. It was undoubtedly intended for hunting for waterfowl.

 

GP

 

Identification 3103

 

Pistolet de tir à un coup, canon basculant, fermeture Tranter, finition noire, crosse noyer quadrillée, bascule jaspée avec hausse et guidon suisses,  portant les poinçons réglementaires du banc d’épreuves de LIEGE, à savoir :

ELG sur étoile dans un ovale couronné : acceptation définitive post 1893.

C étoilé : contremarque du contrôleur post 1877.

Perron : poinçon de l’inspecteur du Banc d’Epreuves en usage de 1853 à nos jours.

R couronné : canon rayé, en usage de 1894 à 1968.

L’arme porte également la marque .22L qui signifie qu’elle est de calibre 22 long (6 mm) annulaire.

RW : vraisemblablement les initiales de l’artisan/ouvrier ayant fabriqué la carcasse

Belgique : sans commentaire

Le fabricant : Meyers-Coune Henri, armurier à Cheratte, il dépose en 1913 deux brevets pour un système de pistolet par déflagration des gaz, combinant le recul en trois endroits et à mouvement de détente inverse ainsi qu’un nouveau dispositif applicable aux armes automatiques. En annexe extrait d’un catalogue de 1909 de la manufacture d’armes L. Ancion-Marx (LAM) ou la même arme figure sous la référence 23TH

HPH

 

Identification 3111

 

Skeletal Leclercq stick

It is about a collapsible rifle standard Leclercq with skeletal stick gauges .38 of them Remington of manufacturing inhabitant of Liège.

 

Markings

 

Perron (little step) : inspection since 1853

 

C under star: countermark of the controller since 1877

 

38 Remington: the ammunition used

 

326896 undoubtedly the number of manufacturing of the weapon.

 

There are certainly other punches under the barrel but they were not photographed. In theory, it is enough to push the button close to the screw to make fold the barrel completely (and to see the punches well).

This kind of Leclercq rifle was abundantly produced in Liege, in a large number of gauges. More rarely with such a skeletal stick. The polished and partially gilded completion is certainly not origin.

The .38 Remington (approximately 9.6 mm) with annular percussion is not current in Belgium; it was extremely widespread between 1870 and 1900 in the United States, so much for revolvers than of the rifles and the production ceased before 1940. The cartridge existed in version shorts, length, extra-long and with leads.

It would be necessary to measure the diameter of the barrel to the chamber because it seems higher to me than 9.6 mm, but it is perhaps only one impression

It is quasi certainly about a production for export towards the United States.

 

GP

 

 

Identification 3120

 

Il s’agit d’un intéressant revolver à bascule de type bossu (chien intérieur) à cinq coups de calibre non précisé combinant deux, voire trois brevets de Pierre Wertz, fabricant d’armes à Chefneux-Barchon. Il a été inscrit au Banc d’Epreuves en 1913 et 1914. Il a déposé sept brevets entre 1902 et 1910.

Les marquages

Sur le barillet : ELG dans ovale couronné : acceptation entre 1893 et 1968

G étoilé : contremarque du contrôleur depuis 1877

: ?

Sur le corps : R couronné : canon rayé entre 1894 et 1968

G étoilé : contremarque du contrôleur

Lion sur PV : épreuve à la poudre sans fumée entre 1898 et 1968.

75 ?

La clé latérale sur le côté gauche est en fait la clé d’ouverture du revolver. Le système a fait l’objet du brevet 210.504 du 5 septembre 1908. Il concerne une "fermeture pour armes basculantes par le prolongement du canon, venant se caler dans le corps de l’arme, au moyen d’un crochet et d’une clef automatique".

Le fond de la crosse peut glisser et ainsi actionner la sûreté ! On peut y lire la lettre S pour Sûreté (apparente lorsque l’arme est en sûreté) les lettres PW Bté dans un ovale, PW pour Pierre Wertz bien sûr. Aussi les lettres NN ( ?) et ce qu’on pourrait prendre pour deux L croisés dans un cercle incomplet ( ?).

Le système de sûreté porte le numéro 208.178 du 11 mai 1909. Il a été perfectionné par le brevet 217.562 du 2 juillet 1909. Il faudrait démonter les plaquettes pour voir la différence et déterminer ainsi le brevet utilisé.

GP avec l’aide efficace de MAX

 

Identification 3121

 

It is about a traditional rifle juxtaposed system Anson of gauge 12 with triple locking, with English stick and forearm with pump. One can read on the upper  tape Lepage à Liege Acier Cockerill (type of steel used).

Markings

Peron (little step): inspection since 1853

 

EL: provisional test since 1852

 

Above choke: CAB or ACB or BCA: undoubtedly the mark of the gunner not identified. One could have thought of Baltus, but its logo is different: ACB in a circle.

 

Choke 18.1: choke barrel, indicating the gauge to 22 cm of the breech, of use between 1924 and 1968.

 

M under star and AD under star: countermark of the controller since 1877

 

Letter PV on lion: test with the smoke-free powder between 1898 and 1968.

 

3468: undoubtedly the serial number of the weapon.

 

S: not identified

 

12 C in a vertical rhombus: gauge weapon between 1898 and 1924

 

P 1k 561.4: weight of the barrel (between 1892 and 1924).

 

D = 65 mm over 20.6: length of the room and diameter of the barrel.

 

There is still a marking of two letters of which has, the whole under star: undoubtedly a countermark of controller.

There is also a marking resembling C lying: not identified. One thinks of a yearly letter, but one does not see which…

The Manufactory Lepage (street of Augustins 26 in Liege) was registered with the proofhouse of Liege between 1919 and 1961.

 

GP

 

Identification 3124

 

It is about a traditional shotgun of gauge 16, with juxtaposed barrels and external hammers, English stick and forearm with push rod.

Markings

 

Peron: inspection since 1853

 

EL: provisional test since 1852

 

ELG in a crowned oval: acceptance between 1893 and 1968

 

16 C in a vertical rhombus: gauge weapon, of use between 1898 and 1924

 

P. 1 K 306.8: weight of the barrel (between 1892 and 1924)

 

U spangled and spangled AD: countermarks of controllers since 1877

 

CHOKE 16.2 over 16.8: in use between 1910 and 1924

 

D=65 mm over 18.7: length of the room and diameter of the gun

 

ACC in a round: not identified

 

LD in a rhombus: maybe according to a source: Jeanne Demarteau, street of the Minors, 69, with Herstal, registered with the proofhouse in 1947-1948; maybe, more probably, Dumoulin Lambert, street Bassenge, 2, in Liege, registered with the proofhouse of 1920 to 1965.

 

L 5: not identified

 

We did not see a yearly letter, so that by deduction, one can date the production between 1910 (choke) and 1921 (yearly letters having begun in 1922). And thus probably in Lambert Dumoulin, the beginning of its career.

 

GP

 

 

Identification 3125

 

Il s’agit d’un fusil de chasse juxtaposé système Anson de calibre 12 à quadruple verrouillage, à crosse-pistolet à joue et longuesse à poussoir marqué Janssen & Fils et C°.

 

Les marquages

 

Perron : inspection depuis 1853

 

EL : épreuve provisoire depuis 1952

 

Lion sur PV : épreuve à la poudre sans fumée entre 1989 et 1968

 

M sous étoile : contremarque du contrôleur depuis 1877

 

ELG dans ovale couronné : acceptation entre 1893 et 1968

 

12-70 dans oméga couché : calibre nominal et longueur de la douille : depuis 1924 à nos jours

 

1kg435 : poids du canon depuis 1924

 

V : peut-être la lettre annale pour 1943

 

Choke 18.2 : calibre à 22 cm de la culasse entre 1924 et 1968

 

GK 16 : non identifié

 

JF&C : Janssen Fils et Cie

 

Janssen Fils & Cie, commerçants en armes, rue Lambert Le Bègue, 4 à Liège, maison fondée en 1867, inscrits au BE entre 1895 et 1937. La société a été mise en liquidation le 1er janvier 1935. Lui a succédé la S.A. Janssen Fils & C°, rue Saint-Gilles, 87 à Liège. Elle a été inscrite au BE entre 1937 et 1951.

 

GP

 

Identification 3126

 

It is about traditional “a rifle of garden” standard Warnant long breech gauges 7 mm Flobert (annular percussion), with squared English stick with the handle and on part of the wood, with octagonal barrel, trigger guard with volutes, with the mention Dresse-Laloux & C° Liege and the mark with the bee in a circle with the letters D and L on the wings.

 

Markings

 

Peron (little step) : inspection since 1853

 

ELG in oval under crown: acceptance between 1893 and 1968. These two punches are of application to the rifles of living room with blasting powder.

 

R crowned: rifled bore between 1894 and 1968; question with the owner: is the gun actually striped?

A (?) under star: countermark of the controller since 1877

 

FL 7 M: gauge 7 mm Flobert with annular percussion

 

FH: not identified

 

Dresse-Laloux deposited the mark with the bee on January 28th, 1881. It was registered with the proofhouse of 1867 to 1908. In 1908, the activity was taken over by the Establishments Georges Laloux.

Jean Warnant (1845-1913) deposited not less than 36 patents of which several being able to refer to the rifle in question, between 1868 and 1873.

This kind of rifle was produced to thousands of specimens in various gauges with annular and central percussion.

The cartridge 7 mm Flobert is not marketed any more since decades, one of the last known manufacturing going back to 1925.

 

GP

 

Note of Littlegun

If you like nice belgian weapons, see my books : http://www.littlegun.be/livres/a%20a%20livre%20alain%20general.htm

Alain Daubresse (Author of these books)

 

Identification 3128

 

Il s’agit d’un très beau fusil liégeois juxtaposé top break, sans doute à platines, gravé par Léonard Smeets, fabriqué pour l’armurier parisien Charles Maugein. Crosse anglaise en noyer bien veiné. Longuesse (avant bois) à poussoir.

 

Les marquages

 

Perron : inspection depuis 1853

 

ELG dans une ovale sous couronne : acceptation entre 1893 et 1968

 

V et G sous étoile : contremarques de contrôleurs depuis 1877

 

Lion sur PV : épreuve à la poudre sans fumée entre 1898 et 1968

 

12-70 dans un oméga couché : calibre nominal et longueur de la douille (depuis 1924)

 

Lettre grecque thèta : lettre annale pour 1953

 

602 : numéro de l’arme

 

Trademark et un dessin comprenant une espèce de cèdre (?) sur une boule (?) et un cône et 60884 et 60885 : les numéros de fabrication des canons par un canonnier non identifié jusqu’à présent ; il est bien répertorié mais sans aucune précision, sinon la mention Whithworth. On lira aussi avec intérêt le lien suivant : https://shotguncollector.com/2017/06/21/the-beginning-of-the-steel-age/ . On y remarquera d’une part les armoiries de Sir Joseph Whitworth qui ont un lien de parenté avec le dessin de ces canons, d’autre part les canons d’un fusil d’Auguste Lebeau, avec aussi un logo du même style au milieu de la mention trademark…. Curieux, vous avez dit bizarre…

 

1kg479 : poids du canon (depuis 1924)

 

18.4 choke 18.3 : diamètre du canon et du choke

 

VC couronné : non identifié (ce sont certes les initiales de Victor Collette, mais à ma connaissance, il n’a produit que des pistolets).

 

Sur la bande : Made of Sir Joseph Whithworth’s Fluid Pressed Steel made for Charles Maugein Paris. Type d’acier produit sous pression breveté en 1866 par Sir Joseph Whitworth (http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Joseph_Whitworth et aussi http://www.shootinguk.co.uk/answers/what-is-fluid-steel-and-is-it-stronger-than-damascus-steel-13767  et enfin  http://firearmshistory.blogspot.be/2014/11/metals-used-in-firearms-xv.html ).

On trouve régulièrement cette mention sur des armes généralement de haute qualité.

La gravure a été réalisée par Léonard Smeets, graveur et incrusteur de SM le Roi (des Belges) (brevet accordé en 1952) (voir le site littlegun.be dans la partie consacrée aux graveurs).

Selon le « Qui est qui » de l’armurerie française, Charles Mangein était armurier à Paris entre 1934 et 1939. Toutefois, la toile nous apprend qu’il était encore en activité dans les années 1950-60, ce qui correspond bien à la date de fabrication de ce beau fusil, à savoir 1953. La plupart des fusils signés Charles Mangein vus sur la toile sont de fabrication liégeoise.

 

GP

 

Identification 3129

 

Voici un juxtaposé en calibre .577 express de fabrication liégeoise « fini » par la maison parisienne Gastinne Renette. Chiens extérieurs, platines arrière, crosse pistolet à joue, à triple fermeture. Fermeture à clé sur le pontet.

 

Les marquages

 

Perron : inspection depuis 1853

 

ELG dans ovale sous couronne : acceptation entre 1893 et 1968.

 

R couronné : canon rayé entre 1894 et 1968

 

EL : acceptation provisoire depuis 1852

 

S sous étoile : contremarque du contrôleur depuis 1877

 

LR sous couronne : non identifié. On pourrait penser à L. Rotsaert mais 1° ses initiales sont dans un cercle aplati ; 2° on mentionne la date de 1948 pour ce fabricant, ce qui ne correspond pas du tout à la période de fabrication de l’arme en question.

On pourrait aussi penser à Rouma Lambert qui a été inscrit au Banc d’Epreuves de 1877 à 1909 et a déposé cinq brevets. Les dates correspondent mais c'est sans garantie aucune.

 

5647 est le numéro de l’arme.

 

Cal. .577 express : calibre de l’arme, un calibre courant à poudre noire pour le gros gibier avant 1914.

 

14.5 : le calibre de l’arme en mm

 

L’absence de lettre annale nous fait pencher pour une production entre 1893 et 1921, davantage même pour la fourchette basse, étant donné qu’il s’agit d’une arme à poudre noire (absence du marquage du lion sur PV).

La maison parisienne Gastinne-Renette, hélas disparue, fut un beau fleuron de l’armurerie française pendant presque deux siècles. Comme beaucoup d’autres grandes maisons françaises, elle s’est régulièrement approvisionnée à Liège, quitte, pour des raisons commerciales, à faire apposer des mentions comme celle-ci : « Fini par Gastinne-Renette à Paris ».

 

GP

 

Identification 3130

 

Here one juxtaposed of type Anson to rifled bores carrying the punch of Auguste Francotte. Stick half-pistol, forearm with pedal-trough. Scope.

 

Markings

 

Peron: inspection since 1853

 

ELG in oval under crown: acceptance between 1893 and 1968.

 

Lion on PV: test with the smoke-free powder between 1898 and 1968.

 

R under crown: rifled bore between 1894 and 1968.

 

b. blindée (ball armor-plated): rifled bores of gauge higher than .22 for lined balls, between 1910 and 1968.

 

EL: provisional test since 1852.

 

P and W under star: countermarks of controllers since 1877.

 

80705: number of the weapon?

 

AF under crown in oval: one of the marks of the house Auguste Francotte.

 

There is also a species of thèta under star: it resembles much the mark of the Duarme Establishments in Vottem, but without guarantee none.

 

87: not identified.

 

One also sees on the left gun an inscription extremely unobtrusive and in any case incomplete: SM Le Roi (His Majesty The King). Is there undoubtedly the name of the arms manufacturer on the right barrel, hidden by the mounting of the scope?

 

I also believe to recognize below right barrel one of the logos of the company of the gunner Jean Cap.

 

A little surprised not to see mention of the gauge, unless they are 8.7?

 

The Francotte dynasty was active in Liege during nearly two centuries (1810-1991).

 

GP

 

 

Identification 3131

 

Here a very beautiful shotgun juxtaposed to external hammers, Damas barrels, English stick, forearm with full pedal, key top break, abundantly engraved but, signed Galand in Paris, in its box with some accessories (screwdriver, rod and brushes), tested in Liege.

Markings

On the table:  Barrel of Galand patented manufacturer;

Peron: inspection since 1853

ELG in oval: acceptance before July 1893

EL: provisional test since 1852

S and Z under star: countermark of the controller since 1877

GV in a circle: could be the manufacturer of barrels Gosme & Van Heer

17.4: gauge in mm, that is to say a gauge 16

CHOKE: chokés unrifled bores, between on January 30th, 1897 and on October 4th, 1898.

WD: not identified

In theory, this rifle thus goes back to before July 1893 (ELG in oval), and even of before June 11th, 1892, date on which one started to indicate the weight of the barrels. But the presence - twice - mention “choke” is difficult to explain since in theory, according to the literature that I have, it does not appear (thus without mention of figures) only between on January 30th, 1897 and on October 4th, 1898. Mystery and "swell of gum…."

The box seems to me quite young for a manufacturing of before 1893. But that wants nothing to say because the Galand house existed until 1942.

Charles-François Galand (1832-1900) is well-known, especially for his revolvers, but also for his shotguns of great quality, like the specimen examined here. He started his activities in 1870 and opened branches, in Liege and London. He had also workshops decentralized in Liege (of 1870 to 1890 according to one of the consulted sources) and in Birmingham. Examined rifle is thus a product of the workshop of Liège. His oldest son Rene took again the company with the death of his father until 1942.

GP

Consulted sources: Der Neue Stockel, Eugene Heer;

Onomastic lexicon of the arquebusiers… Jean-Claude Mournetas.

 

Identification 3132

 

Carabine à crosse demi-pistolet en cours de restauration.

 

Les marquages

 

.22 L : .22 Long

 

R couronné : canon rayé entre 1894 et 1968.

 

M sous étoile : contremarque du contrôleur depuis 1877

 

Lion sur PV : épreuve à la poudre sans fumée entre 1898 et 1968.

 

Perron : inspection depuis 1853

 

ELG dans un ovale couronné : acceptation entre 1893 et 1968.

 

AJD Patent Automatic’s Works ( ?) Herstal Belgium : AJD pour Antoine Joseph Defourny.

 

Voila ci-dessous le document technique en haute résolution.

 

Antoine Joseph Defourny a été actif sous différents noms de sociétés et à différents endroits dans la région liégeoise de 1900 à 1967.

 

La marque A.J.D Patent a été déposée par Antoine-Joseph Defourny, 31, rue Nicolas Defrêcheux à Herstal, le 12 mai 1931.

Je trouve trace de cette carabine dans un courrier daté du 9 février 1949, (envoyé par Defourny à un armurier hutois). Rien dans les catalogues ou petits papiers divers.

 

GP avec l’aide de HPH et Alantrigger

 

Identification 3136

 

Here a traditional shotgun juxtaposed system Anson with triple closing, English stick and forearm with push rod. It comes from Manufacture liégeoise d’Armes à feu.

 

Markings

 

Peron: inspection since 1853

 

EL: provisional test since 1852

 

AD under star: countermark of the controller since 1877

 

12C in a vertical rhombus: gauge weapon between 1898 and 1924

 

PV lion on statement: test with the smoke-free powder between 1898 and 1968

 

D=70 over 20.6: length of the room in mm and diameter in mm after the optional test with the smoke-free powder between 1892 and 1924

 

ELG in crowned oval: acceptance between 1893 and 1968

 

P.1K518.5: weight of the barrel, between 1892 and 1924

 

Lion on ECM3: optional test with smoke-free powder EC. between 1891 and 1968

 

Acier universel et Cockerill (with cock): type of steel used

 

17.6 over 18.4 and 17.5 over 18.3: chokes of the barrels, between 1910 and 1924.

 

J under star (maybe) : either countermark of a controller, or unknown.

 

ML on star in oval under crown: mark MLAF deposited in 1890

 

One can also read on the tape "Manufacture Liégeoise d’Armes à feu, Liège, fondée en 1866. Grand Prix Paris 1910" (Manufacture of Liège of Firearms, Liege, founded in 1866. Grand Prix Paris 1910).

This manufacture from Firearms, street of Vertbois, 52-54 in Liege was registered with the proofhouse between 1866 and 1929. It had also a barrels factory with Nessonvaux. It deposited 26 Belgian patents between 1866 and 1898. It also deposited 27 trademarks between 1889 and 1924.

Being given the absence (at first sight in any case) of yearly letter, one can go back the manufacturing between the end to 1910 and 1921.

 

GP

 

Identification 3140

 

A pinfire revolver of house JB Hanquet in Liege.

One finds the traditional ELG on star in an oval, acceptance between 1846 and 1893.

As well as the letter N under crown which is the mark of the controller: valid from December 30th, 1853 to January 26th, 1877.

There is also what seems to be a V between two rooms of the cylinder, but the photograph is not sufficiently clear.

Company J.B. Hanquet was registered with the proofhouse of Liege between 1796 and 1872, which corresponds perfectly to the period of manufacturing of this revolver, around the years 1860.

It in any case deserves certainly a cleaning to remove rust!

 

GP

 

 

Identification 3149

 

Here a shotgun juxtaposed to external hammers, key of opening enters the hammers, barrels out of Cockerill steel, of Belgian manufacturing, marked on locks A Franchini in Montevideo (Uruguay), the salesman of rifle.

On the tape between the barrels an inscription is reproduced which can result in “special for smoke-free powders”. The manufacturing is current. Cheap engravings of a dog and rabbits on locks.

Markings

Peron: inspection since 1853

EL: provisional test since 1852

16 C in rhombus: gauge weapon, between 1898 and 1924

ELG in oval under crown: acceptance between 1893 and 1968

CHOKE 16.5 over 16.9: choke of the barrels, marking used between 1910 and 1924.

P 1K.371.5: weight of the barrels, between 1892 and 1924

PV Lion on statement: test with the powder lives between 1898 and 1968.

A and AV under star: countermark controllers since 1877.

AG could be the manufacturer of guns A. Garot with Herstal.

I wonder about what I had with the start got for a Greek letter (a species of delta lying). The yearly letters in Greek alphabet were used between 1948 and 1961, which does not correspond to other markings. By deduction, I arrive at a manufacturing between 1910 and 1924.

I do not identify the letter surmounted of a star beside the EL under mention CHOKE 16.5 over 16.9.

GP

 

Identification 3151

 

Here a revolver Abadie system like marked left side of the weapon of manufacturing of Liège. It should be a question of a model 1878 civilian.

Markings

ELG in an oval: acceptance between 1846 and 1893

X under star: countermark of the controller since 1877.

Number 4010 under the barrel, and 942 on the left side of the barrel: no explanation…

Patented Abadie system: one will consult with interest the link according to appear on the site: http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20s/a%20soleil%20fr.htm

who will allow to know some a little more about the saga of certain Abadie Ismaël Issac, civil engineer Carlier street 1 in Liege, which deposited four patents between 1874 and 1877; it sold them in Gustave Prévost which resells them in Léonard Soleil who passes them to her son Leon who yields them to his son Louis.

One will consult also the n° 387 of the "Gazette des armes" of the article of Henri Vuillemin on the revolvers of the Abadie system and his many versions.

The main feature of the Abadie system lies in the door of loading which, once lowered, disconnects the hammer, so that while supporting on the trigger, the cylinder turns without the hammer not moving, which allows the fast and sure ejection casings by the rod of ejection.

This system evolved and was taken again by other manufacturers.

To the reading of all this literature and what one can find on the web, I concluded that it is a civil specimen the model 1878 (the stem attached inside the left plate in any case refer to the patent of February 11th, 1877). It would be also interesting to know if the back part of the trigger guard is squared so as to facilitate the catch of it to lower the aforementioned trigger guard (see the article of Gazette des Armes).

I am not explained the absence of marking of a manufacturer and L. Soleil in particular. There are perhaps (undoubtedly) marks under the plates of grips.

GP

 

Identification 3153

 

Here a very traditional collapsible rifle Leclercq system gauges of them 12 mm with opening by side lever of Belgian manufacturing.

Markings

 

Peron: inspection since 1853

 

R under star: countermark of the controller since 1877

 

EL: provisional test since 1852

 

ELG in oval under crown: acceptance between 1893 and 1968

 

12 m C in rhombus: gauge weapon between 1898 and 1924

 

O under star: countermark of the controller since 1877

 

10.4: diameter of the barrel (?) in mm since 1889.

 

One sees also F. PURNEL engraved in a rather clumsy way as well as other illegible mentions.

We cannot alas consolidate the owner in his assertion according to which it would be about a weapon manufactured by an ex-employee of the English company Purdey.

Hundreds of thousands of these weapons were manufactured in a multiplicity of gauges during nearly one century in Liege.

 

GP

 

This mark “Purnel” is probably the name of a former owner or that of the dealer, it was an usual practice at the time.

 Alain Daubresse (Webmaster)

 

Identification 3155

 

Voici un fusil de chasse monocanon à chien extérieur de belle facture, bascule jaspée, crosse anglaise quadrillée, longuesse à poussoir, canon d’abord octogonal puis rond, marqué Galand, de fabrication liégeoise.

Les marquages

Perron : inspection depuis 1853

EL : épreuve provisoire depuis 1852

24 sur C dans un losange : calibre de l’arme entre 1898 et 1924

Lion sur PV : épreuve à la poudre sans fumée entre 1898 et 1968

T sur PV : épreuve avec une poudre particulière qui ne nous est pas connue

X sous étoile : contremarque du contrôleur depuis 1877

S sous étoile : contremarque du contrôleur depuis 1877

ELG dans ovale couronné : acceptation entre 1893 et 1968

19616 sur toutes les pièces : le numéro de l’arme

CHOKE 14.0 sur 14.7 : canon choké entre 1910 et 1924

14.6 : je ne m’explique pas la présence de ce marquage….

P OK877.6 : poids du canon entre 1892 et 1924

Galand fabricant breveté : Charles-François Galand (1832-1900) est bien connu, surtout pour ses revolvers, mais aussi pour ses fusils de chasse de bonne qualité, comme l’exemplaire examiné ici. Il a entamé ses activités en 1870 et a ouvert des succursales, à Liège et à  Londres. Il avait aussi des ateliers de fabrication décentralisés à Liège (de 1870 à 1890 selon une des sources consultées) et à Birmingham. Le fusil examiné est donc un produit de l’atelier liégeois. Son fils aîné René a repris la société au décès de son père jusqu’en 1942.

Selon le marquage du choke, le fusil aurait donc été fabriqué entre 1910 et 1924, ce qui contredit certes la source faisant état de fabrications à Liège jusqu’en 1890… 

L’arme correspond bien au type 16 « modèle riche » figurant dans un ancien catalogue de la maison Galand, datant environ de 1910. Seule petite réserve : le  dessin est trop petit pour bien voir l’extracteur qui semble être manuel sur le fusil présenté, puisqu’il y a des stries pour faciliter la préhension.

 GP

Sources consultées : Der Neue Stockel, Eugène Heer ;

Lexique onomastique des arquebusiers … Jean-Claude Mournetas.

Merci à HPH pour le document

 

Identification 3156

 

Here a shotgun juxtaposed to external hammers of Belgian manufacturing sold by house H.G. Cords of Bremerhaven. Key of the Lefauxcheux type. Very particular system of long strikers attached to the hammers. Behind the trigger guard a decoration in typical horn of the Germanic weapons. Barrels in Damas or more probably false Damas.

Markings

Peron: inspection since 1853

ELG in oval: acceptance between 1846 and 1893

17.0: undoubtedly the internal diameter of the barrel, which corresponds about to a gauge 16 (in theory 16.8)

Crowned JB: perhaps the initial ones of the gunner or the manufacturer.

M crowned: perhaps initial of gunner or manufacturer.

Funny of L which resembles extremely the L of provisional punch EL of test since 1852. It would be said that the punch was badly struck, cf also the M crowned.

House H.G. Cords of Bremerhaven was activates between 1853 and 1920. Most weapons sold by this firm and met on the web are of origin of Liège.

The very particular system of long strikers attached to the hammers was not identified until now. It makes a little think of the Albini-Braendlin system, but by far…

More probable, but not completely some either, are patent 46934 deposited by P. Bernard in December 1878 (see drawing joint) and following 47143 (January 1879) and 48654 of July 1878.

We do not have alas an information relating to this P. Bernard in Saint-Gilles Liege.

Thank you with MAX for transmitted research and documents.

GP

 

Identification 3158

 

An interesting rifle-revolver with percussion, calibres and dimensions not communicated, more than probably work of Charles Charlier of Wandre like say the signature.

Along the barrel on the left is a system of depression of the balls in the cylinder.

There is only one punch, visible and located in any case, ELG in an oval, is acceptance between 1846 and 1893.

According to the drawings of the patents in our possession, the weapon could concern patent 5499 of January 30th, 1858, itself an improvement of patent 5285 of the December 1st, 1857 bearing on a system of armament by the trigger. But without having the weapon in the hands, it is difficult to come to a conclusion about the use and the function of the parts located under the barrel.

We recognize humbly that we do not see the relationship with a system of armament by the trigger…. That resembles rather a system of assembly and fixing of the barrel to the frame which allows disassembling for the cleaning of the parts after the shooting. There is thus no certainty.

 

Charles Charlier, arms manufacturer with Wandre, deposited eleven patents between 1847 and 1867 and two others with other arms manufacturers (Decortis and Demeuse).

GP

 

Identification 3161

 

Here an apparently traditional semi-automatic rifle FN in .22 Long Riffles of which nearly a half-million were produced since 1914 by the Fabrique Nationale of Herstal. Apparently because, contrary by the large majority of its colleagues, it is not dismountable!

She was most probably manufactured for the Federal Republic of Germany where the dismountable long weapons in two or several parts without tool are not authorized. The loading of the tube charger is done by the means of an opening on the right side of the stock. With origin, in 1914, this opening was located in the handle, with height of the inch.

Markings.

M under star: countermark of the controller since 1877

PV surmounted of a stylised lion: test with the smoke-free powder between 1898 and 1968

R crowned: rifled bore between 1894 and 1968

ELG in crowned oval: test between 1893 and 1968

22 long riffle smokeless: calibre.

F 49479: serial number of the weapon, according to the sources available (http://proofhouse.com/browning/index.html) during the year 1959. The significance of the letter F could not be given until now.

Silesia: quasi certainly the German house of importation.

Until now, we did not find trace of this not-dismountable semi-automatic rifle on Internet, but two sources, one German, and the other of Liège extremely related to the Fabrique Nationale, assure us the manufacturing “in the Sixties of the previous century” of this rifle “especially” for the Federal Republic of Germany where the legislation prohibited the long weapons being dismounted into two or several parts without tool.

GP

Thanks with DZ and CG.

 

Identification 3163

 

Here a shotgun to two juxtaposed barrels, external hammers, key enters the hammers, signed A. Janson patented in Liege on the tape. The forearm is not origin.

Markings

EL: provisional test since 1852

Peron: inspection since 1853

12C in vertical rhombus: gauge weapon between 1898 and 1924

V under star:  countermark of the controller since 1877

ELG in oval under crown: acceptance between 1893 and 1968.

AF under crown: punch of the house Auguste Francotte, the manufacturer of rifle

Choke 17.6 over 18.0: that means that the barrels are chokes. In use between 1910 and 1924.

JB on 7: not identified.

41269: undoubtedly the number of the weapon.

Signed on tape A. Janson Patented in Liege. This Mister indeed deposited patent 033553 in 1873 bearing on a system of closing to the weapons undertaking by the breech, but it corresponds of nothing to the weapon in question like you can see on the drawing joint. One can thus suppose that the weapon was actually manufactured by the Francotte house as a subcontractor of Auguste Janson who put his name on the tape, by recalling that it - also - had deposited a patent “in illo tempore”. We do not have the dates of activities of this Janson house.

According to the punches, one can conclude that the weapon was manufactured between 1910 and 1924.

GP

 

Identification 3164

 

Here a traditional revolver with central percussion, six shots of gauge not communicated, undoubtedly .380. Only characteristic: screw-swell bored which replaces the traditional screw maintaining the barrel with the frame. The almost round bead also leaves the ordinary one.

Markings

 

ELG in oval: acceptance of 1846 to 1893.

 

Q under star: undoubtedly the countermark of a controller since 1877.

 

The absence of the "peron" will be noted.

 

3 on the barrel and the frame: undoubtedly a number of the workshop of the founder.

 

There are also the initial ones on the framework of the handle, LP or R but they are not identified.

 

The initial M.J struck the door are most probably that of the manufacturer of which we think that it could be a question of JAMAR, Michel, arms manufacturer in Liege, boulevard of Avroy, 16 then street Saint Jean, 26.

From 1888 to 1892, he deposits seven patents for inventions and in particular for revolvers and a safety applicable to several species of firearms such as revolvers with hammers, revolvers hammerless and with various kinds of rifles. None the patents of which we have the texts corresponds to this revolver of most traditional whose manufacturing is in any case former to July 11th, 1893 (ELG in an oval WITHOUT crown, and absence of the R crowned for the rifled bores introduced on January 30th, 1894).

GP

Thank you with HPH and GG (†)

 

Identification 3165

 

Voici une jolie carabine à percussion annulaire de calibre 6 mm bien dans le style des armes de salon de la deuxième moitié du XIXe siècle. Belle crosse anglaise sculptée, pontet à volutes. Elle est marquée Rissack breveté.

Les marquages

FG : initiales non répertoriées

EL : épreuve provisoire depuis 1852

5.4 : le diamètre, donc pour une cartouche de 6 mm à percussion annulaire

Deux poinçons non identifiés

231 Rissack breveté

Selon toute vraisemblance, il s’agit d’une arme relevant du brevet 020253 du 5 octobre 1866 déposé par Jean-Jacques Rissack. Cet armurier prolifique a déposé plus de vingt brevets entre 1857 et 1869.

A signaler aussi l’article de Dirk Ziesing paru dans le bulletin 130 de juin 2015 des Amis du Musée d’Armes de Liège.

 

GP avec l’aide efficace et appréciée de HPH.

 

Identification 3168

 

Cette arme est un petit revolver à percussion centrale et carcasse fermée de type “PUPPY”. (Puppy = petit chien, par contradiction avec le revolver “Bulll dog” qui est plus gros).

Ce type d'arme, en fait, était fabriqué plus spécialement pour les femmes, avec une petite taille et une pochette genre porte monnaie en cuir !

Le chien est rebondissant.

Le barillet lisse est à six chambres de calibre .320 (probablement!)

Le canon rond est rayé. Il porte un guidon en demi-lune.

Les plaquettes semblent être en bakélite ou en Gutta-percha (à vérifier).

La détente est repliable dans certain modèle, protégé par une garde de détente dans d'autres ce qui est le cas de celui-ci.

Une baguette est placée sous le canon et peut-être manœuvrée sans la détacher.

L’arme porte les poinçons réglementaires du banc d’épreuves de Liège, soit :

ELG* dans un ovale vertical : acceptation définitive, en usage de 1846 à 1893.

X* : contremarques des inspecteurs, en usage de 1877 à 1893.

18 : numérotations de nature inconnue ?

Marques

Le fabricant liégeois, comme souvent, n’a laissé aucune marque permettant de l’identifier.

 

A.D.

 

Identification 3169

 

Here a rifle juxtaposed of very beautiful manufacturing, signed A. Forgeron in Liege. Engraving is of Léonard Smeets.

Markings

Steel Arquebusier CAPE JF: type of steel of the barrels manufactured by Jean Falla who had taken again processes of Henri Joseph Cap.

12-70 in an omega lying: gauge and length of the room since 1924

 

Lion on PV: test with the smoke-free powder since 1898

 

M and V under star: countermarks of the controllers since 1877

 

1kg.226: weight of the barrel, since 1924

 

EL: provisional test since 1852

 

X: undoubtedly the yearly letter of 1945

 

Choke 18.4,18.5: chokes barrels, since 1924

 

39746: serial number of the weapon

 

Blacksmith typing on an anvil: registered trademark by Alphonse Forgeron in 1902.

 

Alphonse Forgeron, street Adolphe Borgnet, 5 then 4, in Liege, were registered with the proofhouse of Liege of 1880 to 1932. It deposited two patents in Belgium, one in 1902 for a safety intended for rifles hammerless, the other in 1910 for a shotgun to single trigger.

The mark (firm) Blacksmith was yielded to Joseph Boulanger (Proofhouse 1932/1940) initially street Adolphe Borgnet, 5, then street St-Léonard, 492/494 (Proofhouse 1940/1962) always in Liege. If X is indeed the yearly letter of 1945, Joseph Boulanger is then the manufacturer of rifle presented.

In 1963, Jacques Pirotte and then Pirotte J. & Son (E.) street the St. Lawrence, 45 in Liege takes over the activity of the firm Boulanger by preserving the mark “BLACKSMITH”.

As regards Steel Arquebusier, one does not find of it the trace (until now) in publicities of the barrel maker Jean Falla. One finds well for example - compressed steel CAP JF - or - Nickel Compound CAP JF - etc the company Jean Falla was registered with the proofhouse of Liege of 1931 to 1953.

The engraver Léonard Smeets was appointed engraver of His Majesty the King in 1952 (see the heading “engravers” on the www.littlegun.be site.

GP with the effective and appreciated assistance HPH.

 

Identification 3171

Here traditional a pinfire revolver, of gauge 9 mm to be judged some by the cartridge joined, with plates of grips in ivory, engraved, and with relatively short barrel. It is undoubtedly about a production of the house Auguste Francotte.

Markings

F crowned on the cylinder: countermark of controller 1853-1877

 

20 on the cylinder: undoubtedly a mark of the founder of the barrel.

 

A crowned on the barrel: countermark of controller 1853-1877

 

Y crowned: countermark of controller 1853-1877

 

ELG in an oval on the cylinder: punch of acceptance between 1846 and 1893.

 

LF: not indexed (perhaps in keeping with Lefaucheux?).

 

Crowned AF: more than probably the mark of the prolific house Auguste Francotte (see the website littlegun.be)

653: undoubtedly the number of the weapon.

9 KC on the casing: mark Austrian cartridge factory Keller and C° of Vienna.

 GP

 

Identification 3173

 

Here a small revolver of Belgian manufacturing gauges 6.35 of uneven type of them, with folding trigger, opening “topbreak” resembling by far to a Smith & Wesson. The squared plates of grips are maintained by a transverse screw.

Markings

 

R crowned: rifled bore between 1894 and 1968

 

PV surmonted by a little Lion: test with the smoke-free powder, between 1898 and 1968

 

ELG in an oval under crown: acceptance between 1893 and 1968

 

J under star: countermark of the controller between 1877 and 1968

 

6.35 Br: gauge 6.35 Browning (this ammunition was born around 1906)

Under the plates: "QR" under crown? not identified, and "LA" for the Establishments Léonard Andre?

 

LLH: could be Laurent Lochet-Habran, house founded in 1860. It deposited three patents between 1884 and 1897 but they have nothing to do with the revolver in question. It also deposited a trademark in Liege in 1904.

Between the two wars, the house was especially active in the manufacturing of barrels of quality.

GP

 

Identification 3174

 

Here a Belgian copy “cheap” of rifle Kentucky to percussion, or Pennsylvania Long Rifle, as one produced some a long time in Liege, sometimes like parts in kit to assemble and finish oneself, in particular at Centaure and Raick. The firms Italian Pedersoli and Spanish Ardesa are known for counterparts of very good quality.

The origin of this kind of rifle would be German. It was very popular in the American colonists in second half of the 18th century and with the beginning of 19th.

There are only two markings:

punch ELG on star in an oval, for the barrels to be charged by the mouth since 1893,

and 11.4, the diameter of the barrel, i.e. .45.

On the right side of the stick the “patch traditional box is”.

GP

 

Identification 3175

 

Here a rifle SxS hammerless system Anson quasi centenary. On the barrels one can read Fabrique d’Armes Réunies Liège (Manufactory Joined together Liège). The fitting of the stick leaves something to be desired so much that one can suppose that it is not the original stick.

 

Markings

 

Peron: punch of inspection since 1853

 

ELG in crowned oval: acceptance, of application between 1893 and 1968

 

EL: provisional test since 1852

 

T under star: countermark of the controller since 1877

 

PV on Lion: test with the smoke-free powder, of application between 1898 and 1968

 

16 in rhombus: indication of the gauge, application between 1898 and 1924

 

P 1K326.3: weight of the barrel, application between 1892 and 1924

 

D 65 out of 19.00 m/m: length of the room (65 mm) and diameter in mm after the optional test with the smoke-free powder, of application between 1892 and 1924

 

HP: initial (of the gunner?) not identified

 

AD under star: countermark of the controller since 1877

 

34555: undoubtedly the number of the weapon

 

16.4 out of 17.0 choke: barrel choke in mm to 22 cm of the breech and the mouth, of application between 1910 and 1924.

 

The " Fabrique d’Armes Réunies S.A." was registered with the proofhouse of Liege of 1901 to 1920. It was established street Charles Morren, 26-28 in Liege. It was made up in 1901 by Albert Simonis, Antoine & Fils Bertrand, A. Riga & Co, Pirlot and Frésart and part of Pirlot Frères. In 1920, the activity is taken over by the F.AU.L. (Arms factory Plain of Liege, street Trapped, 22, in Liege).

The FAR deposited thirteen patents between 1905 and 1921 for rifles, guns and revolvers.

GP

 

Identification 3176

 

Voici une très intéressante carabine-jouet Legia d’un des membres de la dynastie Pieper, en l’occurrence Nicolas Pieper ; il s’agit plus précisément du modèle A, datant de l’immédiat après-guerre (1 GM).

Comme il ne s’agit pas d’une arme à proprement parler, il n’y a pas de poinçon. On trouve sur la crosse côté droit la mention Carabine Legia et un dessin du perron liégeois (qui ressemble beaucoup à la marque pour le pistolet Legia déposée le 22 juin 1915),  côté gauche la mention « fabrication liégeoise » entourant les initiales NP de Nicolas Pieper qui ressemblent beaucoup (mais en plus alambiqué…) à la marque déposée le 7 janvier 1907.

On trouve à la page 158 du livre « Bayard, les hommes, les armes et les machines du Chevalier Pieper & Cie » de Michel Druart (dont une nouvelle version en anglais est attendue prochainement) le contexte historique des armes-jouets fabriquées pendant et après la Première Guerre mondiale dans le cadre de l’opération « Panem Labore », encourageant la fabrication de nombreux objets, notamment des armes-jouets, pour occuper les ouvriers de l’industrie armurière « en chômage technique ».

Le mécanisme permettait de « tirer avec des amorces en papier contenant un peu de poudre noire ou des capsules pour éteindre une lumière placée à courte distance » (pour tous les modèles). Tous ces jouets – sauf le Modèle A – tiraient aussi des petits projectiles (appelés Numéro 3).

La carabine-jouet Modèle A en question relève du brevet de perfectionnement 273370 du 18 avril 1918 s’appliquant au brevet principal 270792 du 24 décembre 1915.

On la retrouve sur la page d’un catalogue de 1919 reproduite ci-dessous.

Deux remarques : le pontet n’est pas d’origine mais vient d’une arme plus ancienne, peut-être hollandaise.

Je me pose aussi des questions sur la nature et l’emploi de la pièce située près de l’attache inférieure de bretelle et qu’on ne voit pas sur la page du catalogue. Elle me fait penser à la tige extractrice qu’on trouve sur les carabines semi-automatiques Bayard 1912. Mais il faudrait la dévisser de la crosse pour en savoir plus.

Il s’agit en tout cas d’une pièce très rare, quasi centenaire, en très bon état, qui a résisté non seulement aux outrages du temps, mais aussi et surtout à ceux des jeux d’enfant(s) !

GP avec l’aide efficace et très appréciée de PHL et MD.

 

 

La marque NP a été déposée le 21 avril 1906 alors que Nicolas Pieper était toujours renseigné Rue Hayeneux 64 à Herstal.

La marque Legia Pistol a été déposée le 22 juin 1915, quand Nicolas était renseigné Rue Bonne Nouvelle 5 à Liège, par contre, je ne trouve pas trace d'un dépôt de marque pour le logo carabine Legia.

Une partie des infos se trouvent dans ma collection, une autre dans l'excellent livre de Michel p. 176

P-H

 

Le "NP alambiqué" me semble très proche de celui de la plaquette de pistolet, modèle déposé en 1907. Je ne vois rien d’autre dans ses marques déposées (en annexe si vous ne les avez pas).

 

Pour la marque Legia, ne s’est-il pas contenté de reprendre la marque déposée en 1915 pour un pistolet automatique ? Il reste pas mal d’inexpliqué dans l’histoire de Nicolas…

M(ichel) D.

 

 

Identification 3178

 

Voici un revolver à percussion de calibre un peu supérieur à 7 mm, que des collègues qui ont de meilleurs yeux que moi attribuent à Pierre-Joseph Fagard de Saint-Rémy ; ce dernier a déposé trois brevets entre 1855 et 1857.

En effet l'inscription "P......... Breveté" pourrait être " Pierre Fagard breveté".

Mais le revolver en question ne correspond à aucun de ces brevets, du fait de l’absence de bras de chargement côté droit. De sorte qu’on ne peut être tout à fait affirmatif.

Il n’y a pas de poinçon, seulement le numéro 888 à deux endroits, et un 1.

On voit aussi les initiales NC qui pourraient être attribuées à N. Courard, mais là aussi sans garantie aucune.

GP avec l’aide de PHL et HPH

 

 

Identification 3179

 

Here a rifle with percussion with back lock leaving the workshops of Joseph Lemille in Liege.

Markings :

 

ELG on star in an oval: acceptance between 1818 and 1893.

 

Crowned JL: undoubtedly the initial ones of Joseph Lemille. They are also reproduced on other weapons of the same manufacturer. See the www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20l/a%20lemille%20fr.htm site

It had been interesting to dismount the weapon to see whether there are punches under the gun. It is quasi certainly the case.

The other punches are undoubtedly those of military controllers.

I do not manage to decipher the marking of the stick. Do I believe to distinguish a L, for Lemille?

The weapon resembles French rifle much model 1842, but in the absence of numerical data, of the gauge, rifled bore or smooth, etc, it is difficult to say some more.

Joseph Lemille was registered with the proofhouse of Liege of 1836 to 1874. He lived of 1811 to 1882.

He was the son of a soldier of the Empire which remained in Liege.

He deposited three patents but they have nothing to do with the weapon in question. He is especially known to have been one of the founder members of the Museum of Weapons of Liege by bequeathing at the end of his life at the City the hotel of Hayme de Bomal, quay of Maestricht, which became the MAL (Musée d'armes de Liège). Its widow also bequeathed some 500 weapons which are always preserved by the museum.

 

GP with GG (†) and PHL

 

Identification 3181

 

Here a revolver style “bull dog” of Belgian manufacturing whose gauge was not communicated to us. It could be in 6 mm Vélodog to judge some by the length of the cylinder, but the diameter of the rooms and the barrel seems higher to us than 6 mm, so that one can also think of another cartridge like the 7.62 Nagant. Safety known as “German” (superfluous) on the left side. Stem of ejection swivelling in line with cylinder, squared plates connected by a transverse screw and its rivet washers.

Markings

PV on Lion: test with the smoke-free powder, of application between 1898 and 1968.

 

ELG in oval under crown: punch of acceptance, application between 1893 and 1968

 

R crowned: rifled bore, of application between 1894 and 1968

 

Y under star: countermark of the controller, application between 1877 and 1968.

 

2568: undoubtedly the number of the weapon.

 

Patented JFM: undoubtedly the initial ones of the manufacturer who could be Jacques François Martin. One finds them on another revolver evoked on the site Littlegun http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20ma/a%20martin%20jacques%20francois%20fr.htm

It was active in Dalhem around 1866 then in Liege around 1884-1885, but we do not know until which year. It deposited patents concerning of the mechanisms of revolver but they do not correspond to the weapon presented. It is consequently necessary to take the mention “Patented” either like “patentee of arms manufacturer”, or like anybody having deposited patents. And not in the direction of a weapon concerned with a quite precise patent.

It is a very current weapon of which one manufactured thousands of specimens (often cheap) in various gauges until before 1933 (coming into effect in Belgium of a more restrictive legislation as regards detention of weapons). As it goes back to after 1898 and that one does not know when JF Martin did stop his activities, one - (light?)- doubt remains in attribution.

GP with the appreciated assistance of PHL and GG

 

Identification 3182

 

 

Voici un très classique fusil de chasse juxtaposé de type Anson, de fabrication liégeoise. Clé d’ouverture « top lever ». Longuesse à poussoir, crosse anglaise.

Les marquages

EL en lettres cursives : épreuve provisoire en vigueur depuis 1852

 

Perron : inspection, en vigueur entre depuis 1853

 

12 C dans losange : calibre du fusil, en usage entre 1898 et 1924

 

L sous étoile, M sous étoile, AE sous étoile : contremarque du contrôleur, en vigueur entre 1877 et 1968

 

39166 : sans doute le numéro de l’arme

Lion sur PV : épreuve à la poudre vive, en vigueur entre 1898 et 1968

 

P 1k296.4 : poids du canon, en vigueur entre 1892 et 1924

 

Acier Cockerill : type de l’acier utilisé pour les canons

 

ELG dans ovale sous couronne : acceptation, en vigueur entre 1893 et 1968

 

D 70 m sur 20,6 : longueur de la chambre (70 mm) et diamètre en mm après épreuve facultative à la poudre vive, en vigueur de 1892 et 1924

Choke 17,2 sur 18,5 et 17,7 sur 18,3 : canons chokés, en vigueur entre 1910 et 1924.

 

LN ou M : peut-être les lettres du canonnier, non identifiées jusqu’à présent.

 

On peut donc conclure que l’arme a été fabriquée entre 1910 et 1924.

GP

La manufacture d'armes Lepage signait toutes ses armes, celle-ci n'étant pas signée il est peu probable qu'elle soit de cette manufacture !!

AD (Webmaster)

 

Identification 3183

 Here a "pistol revolver" (also called pepperbox) for six pin cartridges signed Deprez Patented. Gauge not communicated, undoubtedly of the 7 mm pinfire. Squared plates of stick out of wooden maintained by a transverse screw. Light engravings. Folding trigger. No door of loading since the axis of the cylinder is unscrewed to allow the loading/unloading. It is also the axis which is used as stem of ejection.

 

Markings

 

ELG on star in oval: acceptance between 1846 and 1893

 

V crowned (twice): countermark of the controller between 1853 and 1877.

 

NF: the founder? It cannot in any case be question of Neuprez Frères of Herstal which manufactured barrels around 1924.

 

Jean Mathieu Deprez of Wandre deposited seven patents between 1857 and 1867, including 014026 of March 4th, 1863 for a mode of closing of the "pistol revolvers" which is that of this machine.

This weapon was thus manufactured between 1863 and 1877.

GP

 

 

Identification 3184

 

Here a revolver with six shots, of military style, gauge 9,1mm (perhaps one .380) resulting from association A. Simonis, J. Jansen and Dumoulin Frères (Brothers) & Co. It comprises left side a swivelling door giving access to the mechanism as one finds of them several alternatives in this end of 19th century. Door of loading on the right, rod of ejection in the style of the lawful revolver French 1873 Chamelot-Delvigne.

 

Markings

ELG on star in oval: acceptance between 1846 and July 11th, 1893

 

Z under star: countermark of the controller between 1877 and 1968.

 

S J & D: association Simonis, Jansen and Dumoulin

 

The working life of association S J & D is not known for us. It deposited eight patents between 1883 and 1886, but none relates to a revolver. It also deposited several trademarks (until November 1889). See on the site littlegun: http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20s/a%20simonis%20janssen%20and%20dumoulin%20fr.htm

Albert Simonis was registered with the proofhouse of Liege of 1873 to 1900. He deposited 19 patents, but none relates to this revolver.

Dumoulin Frères was registered with the proofhouse of Liege of 1877 to 1894. They deposited six patents of 1879 to 1890 but none relates to this revolver.

We do not know which of Jansen in Liege belonged to association: undoubtedly Joseph, but its working life seems to start in 1894.

The weapon is thus in any case former to July 11th, 1893.

 

GP

 

Identification 3187

Here a traditional shotgun juxtaposed with external hammers, key of opening Top lever, forearm with push rod, stick semi-pistol with cheek.

 

Markings

 

ELG on star in oval under crown: acceptance between 1893 and 1968

 

Lion on PV: test with the smoke-free powder, between 1898 and 1968

 

Peron: inspection, since 1853

 

X and S under star: countermarks of controllers, since 1877

 

57869: undoubtedly the number of the weapon

 

P: could be the initial one of Pirard, gunner, but without guarantee none.

 

20 on C in a rhombus: gauge weapon, between 1898 and 1924

 

EL: provisional test since 1852

 

Choke 14.8 over 15.5: chokes barrels, between 1910 and 1924

 

P OK989.2: weight of the barrel which can draw from the smoke-free powders, between 1892 and 1924

 

D= 65 mm over 17.7: length of the room in mm, and diameter in mm after the optional test with the smoke-free powder, of application between 1892 and 1924.

 

JW: initial not identified.

 

Star with five branches with a crown in the medium and letters JRB: one of the registered trademarks by the Manufactory Jean-Baptiste Rongé Fils SA, place Midsummer's Day 4 in Liege, then place Xavier Neujean by change of denomination. It was founded in 1789. It was registered with the proofhouse of Liege of 1832 to 1929. It deposited several patents between 1894 and 1929, and several trademarks between 1894 and 1897.

The activities were taken over by company ARMAF in 1929.

One can thus conclude that the weapon was manufactured between 1910 and 1924.

 

GP with the appreciated assistance of PHL

 

Identification 3189

 

Here a beautiful shotgun juxtaposed to key top lever, stick semi-pistol with cheek, forearm with push rod and indicators of armament of the strikers, marked on the engraving of the rocker “Francotte Original”.

Markings

 

HJA: undoubtedly the initial ones of a preceding owner.

 

Fluss Stahl: type of steel.

 

Lion on PV: test with the smoke-free powder, of 1898 to 1968

 

12-70 in an omega: gauge nominal and length of the casing, 1924 to our days

 

JF:  initial of the manufacturer of barrels Jean Falla

 

18.5 choke 18.4: chokes barrels, between 1924 and 1968

 

Crowned AF: one of the marks of the house Auguste Francotte

 

1kg 278: weight of the barrel, since 1924 until our days

 

P: undoubtedly the yearly letter of 1937

 

U under star: countermark of the controller between 1877 and 1968

 

ELG on star in crowned oval: acceptance between 1893 and 1968.

 

The weapon was thus manufactured between 1924 and 1968 and more than probably in 1937.

We did not find until now which is the inventor of the indicators of armament of the strikers. It is not Auguste Francotte or one of his descendants/successors, according to the analysis of the patents of this famous house inhabitant of Liège in our possession (but we do not certainly have them all). Research continues.

 

GP

 

Identification 3192

Pistolet Bijou dont la marque a été déposée par Alexandre Dupont ; en réalité un pistolet conçu par August Menz (Suhl).

Voici un pistolet en calibre 6,35 mm, relevant du brevet de culasse pour pistolets automatiques déposé en Belgique sous le numéro 325664 le 23 avril 1925 par August Menz de Suhl ; le même brevet avait été déposé en Allemagne le 2 octobre 1924.

Les marquages :

Bijou Bté 325664 Liège Belgique : le numéro du brevet (déposé en Allemagne)

6,35 Br : le calibre 6,35 Browning

Lion sur PV : épreuve à la poudre sans fumée entre 1898 et 1968

K sous étoile : contremarque du contrôleur depuis 1877

ELG sur étoile dans ovale couronné : acceptation entre 1893 et 1968

Bijou : marque commerciale déposée par Alexandre Dupont, rue de la Province 19 à Liège le 31 mai 1928 sous le numéro 3722. Il a été inscrit au Banc d’Epreuves de Liège entre 1923 et 1961. La société est alors devenue la Maison Dupont A. à la même adresse, inscrite au BE de 1962 à 1970.

En fait, ce pistolet fabriqué en Belgique est similaire à un pistolet en 6,35 Br. d’August Menz, appelé Liliput modèle 1926, ainsi qu’il ressort de la photo jointe. August Menz avait également déposé la marque commerciale Bijou en Allemagne.

GP avec l’aide efficace et appréciée de HPH, MD et MAX

 

Identification 3193

 

Here a school rifle of the type “La Française mod. 21” as one can read it on the wood.

These rifles were very popular at the end of the 19th century, and still after the First World War. They were intended for the school battalions and the shooting clubs (gathered within the Union of the Shooting clubs of France created in 1886).

They are generally inspired by the silhouette of Lebel, with a bolt right or bent like here. Their calibre is usually the 6 mm Flobert like models it presented for the shooting to 10-12 m. On request, one could also have a version with a more powerful ammunition to draw with 150-200 m. It would be necessary to examine the rise of the model presented to determine the type.

These school rifles were produced by about twenty manufacturers.

There was also a former model, of 1894.

The repertoire of French arms manufacture Jarlier-Buigné mentions Micheron in Blois in 1931 and Micheron with Mâcon around 1931-1964.

GP with the assistance of PHL and MD

 

Identification 3194

 

Here a very traditional revolver of Belgian manufacturing, calibre and number of rooms not communicated, with side safety on the left known as German, door of loading on the right and rod swivelling of ejection maintained in line with cylinder.

 

Markings

 

Belgium on the barrel: to be sure that it is a Belgian production…

 

R crowned: punch for the rifled bores, between 1894 and 1968

 

S under star: countermark of the controller between 1877 and 1968

 

L under crown: not identified, perhaps the founder of the barrel

 

ELG on star in crowned oval: acceptance between 1893 and 1968

 

JFM Bté: it is perhaps about Jacques François Martin of Dalhem (1866) then established in Liege street Gérardrie 31, around 1884-1885. As an indication: It deposited three patents between these dates, but none relates to the weapon in question. We write “perhaps” since according to the current data, it was active between 1866 and 1885. However, the revolver was as soon as possible manufactured between 1894. Admittedly, one does not prevent the other…

GP with the assistance of MD

 

Identification 3197

 

Voici un pistolet semi-automatique de Nicolas Pieper, plus précisément le Mod D démontant de 1909, en calibre 6,35 Br.

Les marquages

Pistolet automatique N. Pieper Bté SGDG voir plus bas

Lion sur PV : épreuve à la poudre sans fumée entre 1898 et 1968

Perron : inspection depuis 1853

A surmonté de la barre horizontale de T majuscule : non identifié

ARICO : marque commerciale non déposée

Pour ce qui est de Nicolas Pieper, je n’ai rien à ajouter à ce qu’ont écrit avant moi Michel Druart dans son livre sur « Pieper & Cie, les hommes, les armes et les machines du Chevalier Bayard », et Guy Gadisseur (†) qui a rédigé un résumé pour littlegun.be

Le voici

Né à Liège le 31 octobre 1870. Second fils d’Henri Pieper et de Catherine Elisabeth Leroy.

Dès l’âge de treize ans il entame son apprentissage auprès de son père. Peu avant le décès de celui-ci il prend la direction de l’usine de la rue des Bayards tandis que celle de Nessonvaux échoit à son frère Edouard Herman (Armand). En quelques années, la diversification excessive des activités de l’entreprise mène celle-ci au bord de la faillite et entraîne sa liquidation ainsi que l’éviction des deux frères Pieper en août 1905. (voir Ets Pieper). Nicolas se voit contraint de monter sa propre affaire, qui deviendra la Fabrique d’armes automatiques Nicolas Pieper. Pour cela il bénéficiera du soutien de son beau-frère , Auguste Lambrecht, fabricant de pièces estampées, qui mettra des locaux, de taille modeste, à sa disposition au 42 puis au 5-7 rue Bonne Nouvelle à Liège.

Nicolas achètera plusieurs brevets couvrant des pistolets automatiques à un armurier liégeois, Jean Warnant. Il y apportera des améliorations et produira plusieurs modèles baptisés « Démontant » et « Basculant ». Ce dernier, appelé aussi modèle 1909 sera fabriqué sous licence par la Waffenfabrik Steyr en Autriche, jusqu’aux années 30.

Parallèlement, Nicolas Pieper poursuivra la fabrication de fusils de chasse de divers types, inspirés des brevets de son père.

La Première guerre mondiale freinera considérablement ses activités qui seront réduites à la création d’armes-jouets d’excellente qualité.

Après 1918, il s’installera au 292 de la rue Vivegnis. Il fera l’acquisition du brevet d’un armurier nommé Hippolyte Thonon concernant un pistolet de poche semi-automatique. Celui-ci, une copie du FN Browning 1906,  sera fabriqué sous le nom de pistolet Légia, peut-être dans un atelier ouvert à Paris par Nicolas Pieper en 1922.

Après 1923, on ne trouve plus trace de ses activités armurières. Il décédera à Liège dix ans plus tard en 1933 dans la maison familiale de la rue des Bayards.

Production armurière

Fusil de chasse doubles à chiens extérieurs et Hammerless à canons lisses ; Pistolets automatiques de type Démontant et Basculant (modèles A,B,C,A.D. et D) ; pistolet automatique Légia ; carabine type 500 et 501 semi-automatiques ; carabines type 504 et 505 à verrou ; carabine de tir à devant coulissant.

Armes jouets de différents types : imitation Mauser 1889 à amorces, fusils de chasse en miniature.

Alarme de porte à détonation.

Brevets déposés en Belgique

45 au total de 1899 à 1923 concernant les pistolets automatiques, les carabines de petit calibre, les fusils de chasse, les armes jouets, combinaison de sabre et de pistolet, etc.

Marques de fabrique belges

N et P entrelacés (21 avril 1906).

Pistolet automatique Pieper ; Pieper’s Automatic Pistol : Pistolet Pieper ; Pieper’s Pistol (juillet 1906).

Une plaquette de pistolet avec N et P entrelacés (7 janvier 1907).

Illustration Pistolet Nicolas PIEPER (11 décembre 1907).

N.PIEPER’S PATENT (29 février 1908).

Carabine Pieper ; Automatic Rifle Pieper’s Patent ; Pieper’s Automatic Rifle ; Rifle Pieper’s Patent ; Carabine automatique Pieper ; Pieper’s Rifle  (15 février 1909)

Nicolas Pieper Centaure (avec centaure) (4 février 1913)

Légia Pistol (22 juin 1915)

Nicolas Pieper a été inscrit au Banc d’épreuves de Liège entre 1906 et 1927.

GP, MD, GG (†) et PHL

 

Identification 3198

 

Here a revolver pinfire marked “Brevetés Comblain” on the one hand and Arendt on the other hand, without trigger guard, with folding trigger and rod placed along the framework of which a part, with right angle of the rod, is also used to prevent the cartridges from falling from the cylinder. It is damage which one does not have of photograph of this species of door preventing the cartridges from falling.

Markings

ELG on star in an oval: acceptance between 1846 and 1893

V crowned: countermark of the controller between 1853 and 1877

This kind of revolver with rod/door was already the object of a note on the site littlegun.be www.littlegun.be/ma_collection/belgique/be%20klmno/a%20be%20mangeot%20et%20comblain%20fr.htm

It seems to correspond to patent 8182 of 1859.

It is not the first time that it is given to us to see marking “patented Comblain” on a revolver with the same system of rod also which serves as door. It resembles very extremely the punch which used between 1854 and 1861 Mangeot-Comblain association for their many alternatives of revolvers with percussion (from where the mention “patented” in the plural), punch which appears in the note evoked above. Do we suppose that Comblain, after the end of association, continued - by avarice? - to use the punch but by taking care to strike some that the lower part the edge of the framework of its revolvers produced after 1861 or by modifying (= filing) the punch.

As for Arendt, it is quasi certainly about Maurice Arendt, registered gunmaker with the proofhouse of Liege between 1857 and 1889, which deposited about ten patents between 1864 and 1885. Undoubtedly he also worked for Hubert Comblain when this last was more devoted to its rifles with falling block.

GP

 

Identification 3199

  

Voici un fusil de chasse à canons juxtaposés, chiens extérieurs pour percussion centrale, fermeture clé sur le pontet, crosse française sculptée. Avec une mention « FR Navarro » sur la platine arrière droite, « Commandé » sur la platine gauche, et une mention « Canons Bernard Liège » sur la bande entre les canons.

Les marquages

S sous étoile : contremarque du contrôleur entre 1877 et 1968

Perron : inspection depuis 1853

ELG sur étoile dans ovale : acceptation entre 1846 et 1893

EL : épreuve provisoire depuis 1852

16 : pourrait être le calibre ;

JG : non identifié ; on pourrait penser au canonnier Jean Gilles Delcour mais ses initiales sont JGD.

Il y a aussi d’autres marques mais indéchiffrables et non identifiables

 

La mention Commandé FR (ou s’agit-il de « par ») Navarro n’a pas été identifiée.

La mention « Canons Bernard Liège » est fort sujette à caution, dans la mesure où les canons Bernard sont de très bonne qualité et aussi signés sur la table sous les canons.

GP

 

Identification 3200

 

Here a pinfire rifle of good condition, signed Broqua with Auchs (sic), whose barrels in Damas are signed E. Bernard gunner, with punches of Liège.

Markings

ELG on star in oval: acceptance between 1846 and 1893

EL: provisional test since 1852

H under star: countermark of the controller of 1877 to 1968

Peron: inspection since 1853

17.0: gauge in mm (either a gauge 16)

LD under crown: not identified

EB under crown in oval: undoubtedly the mark of Henri-Eugene Bernard, deposited in 1862.

Henri-Eugene Bernard was active since 1840 and it thus deposited a mark on January 18th, 1862 (according to Jarlier-Buigné). See also the site littlegun.be under this name.

Always according to Jarlier-Buigné, the Broqua arms manufacturer in Auchs (sic, insofar as one writes the name of this city of Gers without “S”, even if the natives attached to their language pronounce it…) was active in 1900. However, this pin rifle is former to this date since going back at the latest to 1893.

GP

 

Identification 3201

 

Voici un classique fusil de chasse juxtaposé hammerless fabriqué à Liège pour l’exportation vers les Etats-Unis. L’arme a en effet été vendue par la maison William Read & Sons de Boston, spécialisée dans les articles de sport et les armes pendant près d’un siècle. Du coup, il présente non seulement des marquages belges, mais aussi américains.

Les marquages

BELGIUM : indication que l’arme est destinée à l’exportation

EL : épreuve provisoire depuis 1852

12C dans un losange : calibre entre 1898 et 1924

D 65 mm sur 20.6 : longueur de la chambre et diamètre en mm après l’épreuve facultative à la poudre vive de 1892 à 1924

S et X et R sous étoile : contremarques de contrôleurs depuis 1877

Perron : inspection depuis 1853

ELG sur étoile dans ovale sous couronne : acceptation entre 1893 et 1968

Choke 17.5 sur 18.4 : canons chokés entre 1910 et 1924

JD : pourraient être les initiales de Jean Duchateau, mais lequel ? Nous avons connaissance d’un Jean Duchateau rue DD Salme à Liège, sans indication de dates d’activités. Mais il y a aussi un homonyme inscrit au BE de 1923 à 1925, rue Fush 28 à Liège. Il s’est associé de 1925  à 1936 avec Jules Thonon. Le reste de son histoire sort du cadre de cette identification.

P 1k711 : poids du canon depuis 1924 pour des canons pouvant tirer des poudres sans fumée

Sur la bande Krupp Steel William Read & Sons Boston : le type d’acier utilisé et le nom du vendeur de l’arme aux Etats-Unis.

3.3 grs powder et 1 1sur 8 OZ shot : soit une traduction des épreuves belges, soit une nouvelle épreuve aux Etats-Unis.

Il y a donc trois « problèmes » puisque le marquage du choke est celui utilisé jusqu’en 1924, tandis que le poids du canon est exprimé selon la version postérieure à 1924. De plus, la mention de la longueur de la chambre et du diamètre en mm après l’épreuve facultative à la poudre vive est aussi celle utilisée jusqu’en 1924.

Enfin, je ne vois nulle part le poinçon du lion sur PV indiquant une épreuve à la poudre vive, d’usage entre 1898 et 1968.

Je suppose que l’axe pourvu d’une flèche dorée qui s’aligne sur une autre flèche dorée sur la platine est un indicateur d’armé.

La société William Read and Sons de Boston a exercé des activités de ventes d’articles de sport et d’armes depuis 1826 jusque pendant la 1e Guerre mondiale.

GP

 

Identification 3204

Here a shotgun juxtaposed to external hammers, key of opening Top lever between the hammers, stick semi-pistol and with cheek, of Belgian manufacturing.

Markings

 

Peron: inspection since 1853

 

EL: provisional test since 1852

 

16 C in vertical rhombus: gauge between 1898 and 1924

 

TV 16: not identified.

 

SPI: punch undoubtedly of François Dumoulin (located in 1899) or of the Syndicat des Pièces Interchangeables (Trade union of the Interchangeable Parts).

 

ELG on star in crowned oval: acceptance between 1893 and 1968

 

CHOKE 16.9: choke barrel, between 1898 and 1910

 

K under star: countermark of the controller between 1877 and 1968

 

P reversed under star: undoubtedly a countermark of controller.

 

According to “Who's who arms manufacture of Liège” which allots SPI to François Dumoulin, this last was registered with the proofhouse of Liege between 1894 and 1908 as a gunmaker, Boulevard of Sauvenière 102 in Liege in 1894, then street the St. Lawrence 99 in Liege in 1898. He is then manager and associated firm Dumoulin François & Co, street Thier of Fountain 2 in Liege. This company was registered with the proofhouse of Liege of 1908 to 1968. In 1968, the activity was taken over by the Establishments Georges Laloux.

There is still another possible attribution, namely with the Syndicat des Pièces Interchangeables (Trade union of the Interchangeable Parts), credit of 1899 to 1946, consisted Neumann Frères, Jansen and Fils and Dumoulin Fils & C°. This grouping received parts coming from the National Factory of Weapons of war (FN) and the weapons were assembled and finished by the three associated firms.

There would exist three marks then: SPI, SPI in a rectangle (mentioned in Which is which arms manufacture liégeoisei, and SPI in a circle (mentioned in volume 6 to appear LIEGE GUNMAKERS of Alain Daubresse).

GP

See here to details about these books : http://www.littlegun.be/livres/a%20a%20livre%20alain%20general.htm

 

Identification 3206

 

Here a beautiful shotgun SXS with locks of the house Louis Christophe of Brussels. Engraving is signed M. Hannay.

The house Louis Christophe was well-known in Brussels until the beginning of the years 1970. Located Gallery of the Queen, it is related to Henri Mangeot, then in Joseph Montigny.

M. Hannay is an engraver of Liège which one finds the trace street of Kinkempois with Angleur in 1929. He is mentioned in the 1933.1935 and 1938 old directory at another address, street saint Paul, 39. In the directory of 1944, it is always with the same address but as a grocer (one can suppose that it had “to be recycled” during the 2nd GM…). It does not appear any more in the directory of 1953.

GP with the very appreciated assistance of PHL.

 

Identification 3207

 

Here a traditional juxtaposed rifle of the FN. The weapon passed by two proofhouses.

 

Belgian markings

 

ELG on star in crowned oval: acceptance between 1893 and 1968

 

12 C in vertical rhombus: gauge between 1898 and 1924

 

Peron: inspection since 1853

Lion on PV: test with the smoke-free powder between 1898 and 1968

 

R under star: countermark of a controller since 1877

 

P 1 kg???.4: weight of the barrel between 1892 and 1924

 

D 65 mm over 20.6: length of the room and diameter in mm after the optional test with the smoke-free powder between 1892 and 1924

 

English markings (provided)

R under crown: new test in England for a foreign weapon

BNP: punch of Birmingham since February 1st, 1955

12x65: gauges and length of the room? It is neither a Belgian punch nor an English punch…

18.2: undoubtedly the diameter in mm.

850 BAR: undoubtedly pressure

I see also two swords crossed with letters: that resembles by far the old English punches of before 1904…

Consequently, I can say that, according to the Belgian punches, the weapon was manufactured with the FN between 1898 and 1924 and even before 1922 being given the absence of yearly letter (practical started in 1922).

It was undoubtedly exported in England and was represented with the proofhouse of Birmingham after 1955. But I am not explained the 12x65, I want to say the length of the casing expressed in mm and not in inches… Unless there was a passage in a third proofhouse ?

GP

 

Identification 3208

 

Here a semi-automatic pistol of pocket, probably gauges some 6.35, manufactured by the house Auguste Francotte, on a patent deposited in 1913 by Emile Hermann (who, curiously, does not appear in “Who's who arms manufacture of Liège) and Charles Parent (registered with proofhouse of Liège 1912).

Markings

A Francotte à Liege: very well known house activates of 1810 to 1991 in Liege

Patent 19141: mystery, because it does not appear (and due, to see further) among the very many patents deposited by the house Auguste Francotte.

626: undoubtedly the number of the weapon?

In fact, and thanks to the searchs for MAX, it Appert that this gun was designed per MM Emile Hermann and Charles Parent, who deposited on June 19th, 1913 patent 257794 referring to the pistol in question. The house Auguste Francotte is thus the manufacturer, but not the inventor. It also designed a gun of pocket around 1912, but it is not the gun under review.

Let us note that Emile Hermann had already deposited a patent for a small gun in 1910 under number 224179, but it does not have any relationship with this one.

Also let us raise that A.B. Zhuk announces also the existence of a pistol Hermann (n° 1451, page 182), but it has any relationship neither with the patent of 1910, nor with that under review.

GP with the effective assistance of MAX

 

Identification 3210

  

Here a revolver of average quality to five shots of gauge not communicated, copy of models Colt, rigged out of registered trademarks by Charles Clément in 1893.

Markings

ELG on star in oval under crown: acceptance enters on July 11th, 1893 and on February 26th, 1968

F under star: countermark of the controller between 1877 and 1968

The White House: registered trademark by Charles Clément on June 21st, 1893

The Washington 38: registered trademark by Charles Clément on June 21st, 1893

Provided being given the quality of the photograph: C Clemen (T) S Arms Manufacturers

They are by way of a copy Colt revolvers, either the Colt New Line manufactured between 1873 and 1884, or the Colt New Police COP & Thug (also called House Pistol and New Line Police) manufactured between 1882 and 1886.

Charles Clément was registered with the proofhouse of Liege of 1906 to 1914. He deposited of 1883 until his death not less than 35 patents for revolvers, guns and rifles, and 14 trademarks between 1893 and 1912.

The CT on the plate of stick always asks question: CT for ClemenT?

GP with the assistance of PHL, MD and RD

 

Identification 3213

 

Here a beautiful rifle with juxtaposed barrels, stick pistol and forearm with push rod, manufactured in 1928 (yearly letter G).

Markings

R crowned: rifled bores, between 1894 and 1968

G: yearly letter for 1928

p under asterisk: countermark of the controller since 1877

PV on lion: test with the smoke-free powder, between 1898 and 1968

ELG on asterisk in crowned oval: acceptance between 1893 and 1968

Peron: inspection since 1853

Crowned JF: should be the gunner Jean Falla but according to the sources of which I lay out, it was active starting from 1931.

Acier martelé (Hammered steel): type of steel used

.450/400 express 3 ¼ balle blindée (if I read well because one struck another thing “armor-plated” which I cannot decipher): gauge rifle, a long cartridge with pad whose average dimensions are 10.3 of diameter and 83 mm length, appeared in 1880 according to Bernard Meyer. A very popular gauge until the appearance of the 375 magnum.

10.1: should be the diameter of the barrel in mm

EL: provisional test since 1852

T under asterisk: countermark of the controller since 1877

Mark EB: Braekers establishments deposited on July 7th, 1927

JAMIN: “who's who arms manufacture of Liège” mentions Jamin Marcel, arms manufacturer quay Saint-Léonard 41 in Liege, registered with the proofhouse between 1910 and 1933.

EB interlaced in a double ellipse: registered trademark on July 7th, 1927 by the Establishments Braekers SA, (BE of 1921 to 1935). Charles Braekers deposited before and after the 1GM about fifteen patents, mainly for the shotguns.

One can think that it is about a rifle manufactured by Braekers and sold by Jamin. But without certainty.

GP with the appreciated assistance of PHL and HPH

 

Identification 3217

 

Here a beautiful rifle juxtaposed with external hammers, forearm with push rod, squared "pistol" handle, lever enters the hammers, barrels more than probably to Damas, marked Lepage in Liege. Locks and trigger guard are nicely engraved in particular with animals.

Markings

ELG on asterisk in crowned rhombus: acceptance between 1893 and 1968

 

12 on C in rhombus: gauge of 1898 to 1924

 

Peron: inspection since 1853

 

LC: quasi certainly the initial ones of Lucien Clement, gunner with Nessonvaux

 

EL: provisional test since 1852

 

G under asterisk: countermark of the controller between 1877 and 1968

 

I am a little astonished not to see a photograph(s) weight of the barrel (marking introduces in 1892), of possible the chokes, length of the room (marking introduces in 1892) since the weapon is after 1898. In the same way, I am a little astonished to see such a rifle of beautiful invoice being with black powder after 1898… But which am I…

Finally and especially, I lose myself in the history of the Lepage arms manufacturer: if I read well “Who's who arms manufacture of Liège, the “Manufactory Lepage” was activates of 1919 to 1961. This rifle former to this period since is thus marked “simply” Lepage in Liege. However, according to publicity appearing on page 163 of “Who's who”, the company exists since 1790. But how it signed its production being given all the associations and recoveries largely evoked in “Who's who”...

In short, still much of questions…

GP

 

Identification 3218

 

Here a beautiful juxtaposed lock rifle manufactured by the firm Auguste Francotte for the Hungarian arms manufacturer Josz. Kirner in Budapest, taken again in 1905 by Johan Pirk. Pretty engravings.

Markings :

 

Peron: inspection since 1853

 

EL: provisional test since 1852

 

12 on C in rhombus: gauge of 1898 to 1924

 

ELG on asterisk in crowned oval: acceptance between 1893 and 1968

 

A badly struck marking of a tree surrounded by the letters A and F: one of the many marks of the house Auguste Francotte.

 

AB under asterisk: countermark of the controller of 1877 to 1968

 

Choke 17.6 (?) over 18.0: chokes barrels, of use between 1910 and 1924.

 

I do not see marking for the length of the room and the diameter in mm. In theory of use of 1892 to 1924.

 

Budapesten Kirner Josz: see low

Utoda Pirk J: successor Pirk J.

 

There is also a marking for the type of steel used for the guns, but I can decipher only Martin Steel. Perhaps is this “Siemens Martin Steel”. It surrounds crowned letters AF: one of the many marks of the house Auguste Francotte.

 

The dynasty Hungarian arms manufacturer Kirner goes back to Georg Kirner (1781-1847), originating in Bavaria, bench with Ofen then with Pest (one of the two cities having constituted Budapest).

He succeeded his son Josef (1809-1869), credit between 1832 and 1861.

The son of this last was called also Josef (1838-1916). He was arquebusier of the Court.  He sold his company in 1905 to Johann Pirk (o).

There exist many publicities of this Kirner house, just as of the shotguns of top quality.

 

GP with the effective and appreciated assistance PHL.

 

Identification 3222

  

Here a boxlock flint pistol, pistol of bronze tromblon, safety of hammer, marked (rather awkwardly) HJ Bury on the two sides of the box.

There is no identifiable punch on the transmitted photographs.

There was many Bury in Liege with 18th and 19th century, of which a Henry-Joseph between 1791 and 1813 according to Neue Stockel.

According to Jarlier/Buigné, the aforementioned Henry-Joseph is located between 1780 and 1810 (he is written 1880-1810 but it is quasi certainly about a typing error).

At all events, the weapon dates well from the period 1790-1810 and can thus be allotted to Henry-Joseph Bury.

The Museum of Weapons of Liege has a blunderbuss or a espingole carrying the same signature: this weapon was manufactured between 1780 and 1810.

GP and HPH

 

Identification 3226

 

Here a curious revolver of calibre not specified, with interior hammer (also called uneven) and folding trigger, whose handle can slide in order to reduce the obstruction of the revolver. Blocking/releasing of the handle is probably done via the button located on the right of framework. Door of side loading on the right. Stem swivelling in line with cylinder.

Markings

Lion on PV: test with the smoke-free powder between 1898 and 1968

There should be other punches between the rooms of cylinder (in particular a ELG on star in crowned oval).

C crowned: it would be normally a punch of controller, but it is hardly possible since this kind of punch with crown was used between 1853 and 1877. However, the weapon is after 1898. Thus not identified until now.

Thanks to the searchs of Max, one can allot this system of handle sliding to Michel Thonon son, arms manufacturer with Corinhez-Housse, which deposited in 1909 four patents, including 220480 (on November 16th, 1909) which corresponds in the broad outlines to the weapon presented. The latter has however an improvement in the shape of a button on the right side of the framework for - probably since we were not pleased to have the machine in hand - blocking and freeing the handle. In the original version of the patent of Michel Thonon, there is a system of spring(s) which blocks the handle in position high or low, but not the aforementioned button.

GP with MAX and Alan.

 

 

Identification 3227

 

Here a shotgun juxtaposed to external hammers, stick pistol, engravings, quality and completion very average.

Markings

Peron: inspection since 1853

1 kg 440: weight of the barrel, of use since 1924

I: yearly letter for 1930 (provided)

M under star: countermark of the controller between 1877 and 1968

Lion on PV: test with the powder lives of 1898 to 1968

EL: provisional test since 1852

ELG on star in crowned oval: acceptance between 1893 and 1968

F under star: countermark of the controller between 1877 and 1968

12-65 in omega lying: gauge nominal and length of the casing since 1924

18.4 and 18.3: gauge in mm since 1889

"Nitro Proved" and "Fire Armes" (sic) C° Liege: I do not find them in the file of the registered trademarks in Belgium. There was well an English version of Manufacture of Liège of firearms in 1901, but she is “Liege Fire Arms Manufacturing C° Ltd”.

Does the typing error "ARMES", therefore in French, instead of "ARMS", challenge to me ..... would be a forgery?

Nitro Proved exists well in England, but for rifles and rifles military (1916).

Consequently, I have the feeling which these English mentions are booby-traps… but I do not affirm it either.

GP with the assistance of HPH and Max.

 

Identification 3229

 

Voici une arme longue relevant du système Remington Rolling Block « mis à la sauce liégeoise ». Son propriétaire aurait pu préciser s’il s’agit d’un canon lisse ou rayé. Il se pourrait aussi qu’il y ait des marquages sous le canon (= dévisser la vis du fût) concernant notamment le calibre. Je présume que le levier à droite sert à démonter l’arme en deux pièces.

Perron : inspection depuis 1853

S sous étoile : contremarque de contrôleur entre 1877 et 1968

FDC traversé d’une flèche vers la droite : peut-être François Dumoulin (actif depuis 1870 selon une source française) ou François Dumoulin et Cie, mais j’ai des doutes sérieux car

1° selon la même source française, la marque de François Dumoulin déposée en 1881 est une flèche vers la droite traversant les lettres DDF (et donc pas FDC comme ici);

2° la société François Dumoulin et Cie a été inscrite au Banc d’épreuves de 1908 à 1968, ce qui ne correspond pas avec le marquage suivant :

GD en lettres anglaises : en principe Gilles Decortis de Cheratte, qui a déposé huit brevets entre 1851 et 1875, aucun ne se rapportant à l’engin en question. Jarlier/Buigné situe sa période d’activité entre 1856 et 1887.

Donc rien de certain, que du contraire..

GP avec HPH et MD

 

Identification 3231

 

 

Here a traditional shotgun juxtaposed to external hammers, stick pistol and key of opening Top Lever.

Markings

EL: provisional test since 1852

Choke 16.6 over 16.6: chokes barrels, of use of 1910 to 1924

Peron: inspection since 1853

U and P under star: countermarks of controllers of 1877 to 1968

16 C in vertical rhombus: indication of the gauge of 1898 to 1924

ELG on star in crowned oval: meaning of 1893 to 1968

ACCT in a circle: should be the mark of the manufacturer of barrels Lucien Clément of Nessonvaux.

V in square: not identified

Choke Bore: indicate that the barrels are chokes.

In all logic, this rifle was manufactured between 1910 and 1924.

GP

 

Identification 3232

 

Revolver with percussion with box frame and black powder.

The barrel is with 8 sides with small dovetail front sight inserted and bead cut in the amount of hammer.

The smooth cylinder is with six chimneys.

The stick east seems it of only one part, out of wood of walnut finely squared. It ends in a metal cap.

The whole of the metal parts carries engravings of sheets of vine branch.

Punches

The weapon carries the punches of the proofhouse of Liege, namely:

ELG on star in an oval: final acceptance, of use of 1846 to 1893.

U crowned: countermark of the controller, of use of 1853 to 1877.

Period of manufacture: between 1853 and 1877.

Markings

The weapon carries the mark of its inventor, namely D. RENOTTE Breveté (Patent)

Dieudonné RENOTTE, Joseph, was an arms manufacturer with COVER LEZ LIEGE since 1853. He was a then “platinor” (manufacturer of lock) to Liege. During the period of 1856 to 1859, it deposits 5 Belgian patents for:

- Improvements with pistols and rifles.

- Modifications and improvements brought to firearms with DANDOY.C.

- Modifications made to the system of firearms revolver with DANDOY C.

- A double trigger with departure continuous or at will applicable to the revolvers, with DANDOY. C manufacturer of weapons.

- An addition with the closing of the weapons revolvers (with DANDOY.C.)

DANDOY Célestin manufacturer of weapons was registered with the proofhouse of 1846 to 1865. From 1865 to 1867, it created company DANDOY Célestin & Co.

GG †

Note : You can see another weapon very similair here : Renotte Dieudonné Joseph

 

Identification 3235

 

Voici un classique revolver à percussion centrale se rapprochant du modèle Constabulary mais dans ce cas-ci, la crosse est arrondie. Portière de chargement à droite, baguette d’éjection pivotante dans l’axe du barillet. Six coups, calibre non précisé, sans doute un .320. Sûreté de chien à gauche. Anneau de calotte. Canon en partie octogonal et rond.

Les marquages

ELG sur étoile dans ovale couronné : acceptation entre 1893 et 1968

Double p sous étoile : sans doute la contremarque d’un contrôleur entre 1877 et 1968

C couronné sur le barillet : non identifié ; ce ne peut être la contremarque d’un contrôleur d’avant 1877 puisque l’arme a été fabriquée au plus tôt en 1921…

EF ou EP (?) sur la carcasse côté gauche : pourraient être les initiales d’Emile Fraipont, inscrit au Banc d’épreuves de Liège entre 1903 et 1927, fabricant d’armes, rue Monulphe 45 à Liège.

LA : sans doute la marque du fondeur, non identifié

SF dans un cercle en dessous des plaquettes de crosse : sans doute la marque déposée par la société Schroeder Frères le 26 février 1921. La fabrique d’armes SPRL Schroeder Frères, Max et Charles Edouard, rue Simonon 8 à Liège, a été inscrite au Banc d’épreuves de Liège entre 1919 et 1938. Ils succèdent à leur père Edouard. Ils avaient une succursale à Bruxelles, rue des Comédiens, 26.

Le fait que les initiales EF soient apparentes peut nous mener à penser que l’arme a quasi certainement été vendue par Emile Fraipont : les initiales SF dans un cercle sont en effet dissimulées sous les plaquettes de la poignée. Mais je ne suis pas certain à 100% qu’il s’agisse bien d’une part des initiales EF, d’autre part que le SF dans un cercle soit bien la marque de Schroeder Frères.

GP avec l’aide d’Alan

 

Identification 3236

 

For understanding well it is necessary to look at the two united series of page:

- Casimir Lefaucheux Arquebusier 1802-1852 pages 83 to 86 of Gerald Lautissier

- The saga of the shotguns Lefaucheux pages 23 to 28 of JC Mournetas

 

This single stroke rifle was produced by Casimir Lefaucheux in Paris, in the workshops of the 5 street JJ Rousseau.

Rifle resulting from patent 5138 of January 28th, 1833 and addition of March 13th, 1833.

The patent and milked addition of the key of swing thus of the opening of the barrels.

 

The chimneys are placed generally directly on the barrels, here they are on the rocker what is rarer (more difficult has to realize)

 

GUILLAUME

 

Identification 3237

 

Here a revolver of quality, calibre .320 to five shots, round barrel, foldable trigger, bearing on the plates letters CC interlaced of Charles Clément.

Markings

 

R crowned: rifled bore, of 1894 to 1968

 

ELG on star in crowned oval: acceptance between 1893 and 1968

 

W under star: countermark of controller of 1877 to 1968

 

C under crown: not identified, perhaps the mark of the founder?

 

17345: undoubtedly the number of manufacturing

 

Charles Philibert Joseph Clement, gunmaker, street Chéri 37 in Liege was registered with the proofhouse of Liege of 1906 to 1914. From 1883 to 1912, year of its death, it deposited not less than 35 patents, but a priori, none seems to relate to the weapon presented here. He also deposited 14 trademarks between 1893 and 1912.

 

GP

 

Identification 3239

 

Here a musketon with percussion with its long bayonet, marked GB for Belgian government. Its owner was well inspired by us to communicate the main features of them: overall length 114 cm, length of the gun 75 cm, weight 3.165 kg, gauges 17.5 mm, eight stripes.

Apparent markings are

GB: Belgian government

JP 50 in a hexagon: probably a marks of controller.

N overcome of a rhombus: probably a marks of controller.

There are undoubtedly still other punches under the barrel.

There is also a macaroon in the stick, undoubtedly that of the "Manufacture d’Armes de l’Etat" in Liege.

One as twice sees the date of 1850, more as probably that of the manufacturing of the weapon.

One sees also a number and the date of 1835 on the butt plate: it is perhaps about a recovery of an older weapon.

As there is no regimental marking of the Belgian army, one can conclude that this weapon was perhaps intended for the Belgian customs. The National museum of the Customs in Antwerp exposed there is a few years a musketon in one of its windows. It would be necessary to be able to compare it to be sure of my assumption.

GP

 

 

Identification 3240

 

Here a superimposed rifle with two triggers of Belgian manufacturing.

Markings

Peron: inspection since 1853

ELG on star in crowned oval: acceptance between 1893 and 1968

1kg259: weight of the barrel, since 1924

P turned over under star: countermark of a controller since 1877

Lion on PV: test with the smoke-free powder since 1924

CHOKE 16.9: barrel choke between 1924 and1968

16-70 in omega lying: gauge nominal and length of the room, since 1924

EL: provisional test since 1852

Y under star: countermark of a controller since 1877

"p": if what I read is well a "p", it is the yearly letter of 1937

JS: undoubtedly the punch of the manufacturer of barrel. Already met but not identified yet.

"Canon demi block best fluid steel" on a paper: I suppose that it is the type of steel used. I do not know where figure this registration nor which is its exact contents.

31951 must be the number of manufacturing of the weapon.

GP

 

Identification 3241

 

Here a pistol with percussion with two superimposed barrels, marked H. Petitjean Liege. It could have been used for hunting to complete big game. The rather rudimentary manufacturing made me somewhat think of a manufacturing of the 20th century, but which am I…

Markings

Peron: inspection since 1853

R crowned (if I see well, but I am not sure whole): countermark of a controller between1853 and 1877

ELG on star in oval: acceptance between 1818and 1893

X under star: countermark of a controller between 1877 and 1968 and

v pennies star: countermark of a controller between 1877 and 1968: there is contradiction with the R crowned mentioned above (in so far as it is indeed a R crowned of course…)

16.0: diameter of the barrel? To check by the owner

3382: the number of the weapon

I believe to distinguish letters EL, but I am not sure: it could be a question of the provisional test, since 1852

JD or JF (in a letter) D: undoubtedly the manufacturer of the barrel; not identified.

The name of Henri Petitjean is included in Jarlier-Buigné and Stockel, but it is about an active arms manufacturer between 1770 and 1790 (even 1799 according to Stockel). What thus does not correspond with the machine presented, since it is with percussion and thus posterior of more than twenty years to the working life evoked above. The known parts of this arms manufacturer are of a definitely higher quality, as one can see them on the following link: http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20p/a%20petitjean%20fr.htm

A contrario, one of the weapons presented in the link in question is also a pistol with percussion… but of definitely higher manufacture.

The purists will have as noticed as Liege east written on the barrel of this pistol with a grave accent (orthography in force since a decree of the Regent in 1946), whereas one would have more expected an acute accent… But it is not that a remark of (old EM…) purist… the more so as it is well-known that the orthography of the proper names “fluctuated” with the wire of the centuries, in Liège/Liége too!

In conclusion, doubts remain on the attribution of this part with Henri Petitjean (fine 18th century). Unless it is about a later homonym, unknown until now. Or of a skilful forger, using the name of a well-known arms manufacturer in Liege end of the 18th century, since having provided weapons to the revolutionists…

GP with the assistance of HPH.

 

Identification 3242

 

Voici une peu courante carabine mixte type Warnant à deux canons superposés et deux détentes mais un seul chien, au-dessus en .22 Flobert long, en dessous en 9 mm Flobert court, donc à percussion annulaire dans les deux cas. Je présume que le canon supérieur est rayé, l’inférieur lisse. L’heureux propriétaire aurait pu le signaler.

Les marquages

Perron : inspection depuis 1853

ELG sur étoile dans ovale couronné : acceptation entre 1893 et 1968

FL 9 m C : calibre 9 mm Flobert court

8.6 : diamètre intérieur du canon inférieur

FL .22 L : calibre .22 Flobert long

5.4 : diamètre intérieur du canon supérieur

A sous étoile, AB sous étoile, J sous étoile : contremarques de contrôleurs (entre 1877 et 1968)

Je crois aussi distinguer le L faisant partie du poinçon EL pour l’épreuve provisoire, depuis 1852.

Il est bien dommage que le fabricant/armurier n’ait pas mentionné son nom sur cette carabine sortant du commun.

Je ne m’explique pas la présence de deux détentes ; je ne crois pas qu’il s’agisse d’une détente type stecher sur une telle carabine de jardin…mais ce n’est pas impossible non plus. L’heureux propriétaire pourrait-il éclairer ma lanterne ?

 

GP

 

Identification 3243

 

Voici un classique fusil de chasse juxtaposé de fabrication belge, à chiens extérieurs, platines arrière, crosse anglaise, gravure sommaire. Marqué Boston sur la bande entre les deux canons.

Les marquages

Perron : inspection depuis 1853

16 sur C dans losange vertical : calibre de 1898 à 1924

R et L sous étoile : contremarques de contrôleurs de 1877 à 1968

EL : épreuve provisoire depuis 1852

ELG sur étoile dans ovale couronné : acceptation entre 1893 et 1968

VJ : peut-être le poinçon du canonnier, non identifié.

La marque Boston ne figure pas dans le petit livre vert des marques déposées en Belgique.

Il existe bien un (beau) type de damas appelé Boston, généralement destiné aux fusils de luxe, mais on ne peut pas dire que ce fusil-ci soit « de luxe ».

Ses canons ne sont apparemment pas en damas ; il faudrait les soumettre à un traitement (ne serait-ce que du jus de citron, paraît-il) pour s’en assurer.

 

Donc mystère… ou tentative de tromperie ?

 

GP avec l’aide de HPH

 

Identification 3244

  

Here an outline of juxtaposed rifle whose only barrels are completed and tested.

Markings

Peron: inspection since 1853

S and V under star: countermarks of controllers of 1877 to 1968

PV on Lion: test with the powder lives between 1898 and 1968

3441: undoubtedly the number of manufacturing of the barrels

EL: provisional test since 1852

Choke 18.4: barrel choke to 22 cm of the breech, 1924 to 1968. I wonder why the number 18.4 is not on the same line as the word choke. Especially, this kind of wording of choke was applied of 1924 to 1968. Mystery… because in contradiction with the three following punches:

P 1 K 325.5: weight of the barrel of 1892 to 1924

12 C in vertical rhombus: gauge of 1898 to 1924

D= 70 mm over 20.6: length of the room and diameter of the barrel after the optional test with the smoke-free powder, of 1892 to 1924.

There is also an odd letter (on the left of V under star), which I believed being Greek and which could thus have been a yearly letter. But there is problem since I do not recognize any Greek letter (I know, a long time ago that I studied the Greek…). And the Greek yearly letters were used between 1948 and 1961 if my information is good. However, like say the last three punches, rifle goes back at the latest to 1924.

According to the colleagues of the group of identifications and eminent other specialists, it could be a question of a letter B badly struck; the letter B is the yearly letter of 1923, therefore that could “stick”. But without guarantee none.

GP with the assistance of HPH and PHL

 

Identification 3245

 

I would like to thank well the owner of this pin revolver for having had kindness and the intelligence to draw up the list of all the markings found on his revolver. That facilitates much work and saves my tired eyes… If all the applicants of information did as much of it, the life would be beautiful…

Here thus a pin revolver with opened box, octagonal barrel and side rod of ejection of the casings of very average quality, undoubtedly gauges 7 mm and out of run cast iron of them, as one manufactured some much in Liège, still a long time after the appearance of the smoke-free powder.

Markings

ELG on star in crowned oval: acceptance between 1893 and 1968

R crowned: rifled bore, in application between 1894 and 1968

J under star (three times): countermark of the controller since 1877 until 1968

AS under star, a plate of grips: one could think of the well-known arms manufacturers Albert Simonis or Albert Spirlet, but it is not very probable, on the one hand being given the “quality” of the weapon, on the other hand owing to the fact that these initial is under a plate of stick, therefore non visible.

FG?: not identified

W: undoubtedly the founder.

GP

 

Identification 3246

 

Here a pin revolver of gauge not specified (undoubtedly 7 or 9 mm) with a shield to protect the pins. The octagonal barrel is surmounted by a band finishing in language of snake on both sides of the hammer; the band is fixed at the breech by two vertical screws. One thinks of the revolvers designed by the Merolla brothers, but on their premises, the screws are horizontal. See the site littlegun http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20m/a%20merolla%20fils%20fr.htm

 

There are only few markings:

ELG on star in oval: acceptance until 1893.

L under star: countermark of a controller between 1877 and 1968

AS under star, a plate of stick: one could think of the well-known arms manufacturers Albert Simonis or Albert Spirlet, but it is not very probable, owing to the fact that these initial is under a plate of stick, therefore not visible.

GP

 

Identification 5103

The weapon

 

It is about a revolver with central percussion and top break of type S&W.

The lock seems me to be of hammerless type although the photographs are hardly explicit in this place!! I thus have a doubt?

The opening is practiced by pressing two pedals placed on both sides console, system corresponding to a patent n° 064421 of the 8.3.1884 of Léonard WARNANT-FRANQUET (see technical drawing in appendix).

The rifled bore is round with a rectangular higher band carrying a back sight in half-moon.

The grooved cylinder is with 5 rooms of gauge 8mm.

 

Punches

 

The weapon carries the lawful punches of the proofhouse of Liege, namely:

 

ELG on star in a crowned oval: final acceptance post 1893.

 

AR crowned: countermark of the controller post 1877.

 

R crowned: rifled bore, of use of 1894 to 1968.

 

Marks

 

SEL under a small triangle: isn't the reading of this mark certain, that could just as easily be BEL?? This mark was not discovered in the book of markings arms manufacturers of Liège!

 

CAL 8/MM: gauge weapon.

 

L crowned: this mark should be the mark of the foundry in theory having produced this cylinder but this information could not still be confirmed.

 

396: serial number.

 

11: marking of workshop?

 

The holster

 

These weapons of average manufacture were produced in thousands of specimens for export. They were sold most of the time by batches of 100 parts. They were never accompanied by any holsters. Your specimen is not thus origin but subsequently added in the country of purchase of your weapon.

 

GG

 

 

Identification 5104

 

The weapon

 

It is about a shotgun to central percussion.

The steel barrels are smooth and juxtaposed.

They with gauge 12 (18,2 mm) and are chokes.

Locks are “ahead” with hammers external and key of opening between those.

The trigger is double under trigger guard.

The stick out of wooden of walnut (?) is of type “pistol”.

 

Punches

 

The weapon is struck punches of the proofhouse of Liege, namely:

 

ELG on star in an oval under crown: final acceptance post 1893.

 

Peron: inspection post 1853.

 

T and V spangled: countermarks of the controllers post 1877.

 

EL in English letters: provisional test, of use of 1852 to our days.

 

12 C in a rhombus: gauge, of use of 1898 to 1924.

 

17,4: gauge in mm, of use of 1889 to our days.

 

18.0 chokes barrels gauged in mm to 22 cm of the breech and the mouth.

18.0 In use of 1910 to 1924.

 

The manufacturer

 

129: should be a serial number?

 

The punches teach us that the weapon was manufactured in LIEGE between 1910 and 1924.

 

New Haven Arms is probably a trademark fictitious because it does not appear in documentation, just like the word INTERCHANGEABLE which us was already announced on the mark REGENT ARMS quite as unknown!

These fictitious denominations were not rare in LIEGE at this time, they were probably intended to mislead the customs of the countries of South America large importers of weapons of Liege. It’s also probable that the import duties were important! The traffic of weapons was currency running fine of the XIXe beginning of the XXe century.

For the small history, documentation gives a report on a mark REGENT allotted in 1913 to the manufacturer SCHNORRENBERG W & Fils street of the South, 5 in Brussels. We are unaware of if there is correlation between these elements?

 

GG

 

Identification 5105

 

L’arme

 

Il s’agit d’un pistolet à percussion centrale, à répétition manuelle et à bloc descendant qui ressemble assez fort au bien connu pistolet REFORM.

A la différence prêt qu’ici le bloc descend du haut vers le bas.

Les 4 canons sont superposés et le calibre n’a pas été communiqué, du 6,35 vraisemblablement.

Comme les poinçons l’indiquent, l’arme a été fabriquée à LIEGE. Elle ne porte aucune marque de fabricant ni de brevet ce qui semble indiquer une copie ou une adaptation.

La recherche dans les brevets est demeurée vaine.

L’arme porte une jolie gravure en fond creux représentant à gauche une couronne (royale ?) et des feuilles de chênes et à droite une croix pattée entourée de deux glaives.

Les plaquettes en bois de noyer ( ?) sont également sculptées de feuilles de chênes.

 

Les poinçons

 

L’arme porte les poinçons réglementaires du banc d’épreuves de Liège, à savoir :

 

ELG sur étoile dans un ovale couronné : acceptation définitive post 1893.

 

Double B inversés sous une étoile : contremarque du contrôleur post 1877.

 

R couronné : canons rayés, en usage de 1894 à 1968.

 

PV surmonté d’un lion stylisé : épreuve à la poudre sans fumée, en usage de 1898 à 1968.

 

Les marques

 

Aucune marque de fabricant n’est visible sur l’arme.

ND – ML et FL sous une plaquette, sont des marques de sous-traitant non identifiés.

 

GG

 

Identification 5106

 

L’arme

 

Il s’agit d’un fusil de chasse à canons juxtaposés.

Ces canons en damas de type OXFORD sont à âme lisse et de calibre 12 ou 17,4 mm.

Les platines sont de type « en avant », les chiens sont extérieurs, la clé TOP entre ceux-ci.

Je n’ai pu déchiffrer le motif de la plaque de couche (en corne moulée ou en gutta-percha)

 

Les poinçons

 

L’arme porte les poinçons réglementaires du banc d’épreuves de Liège, à savoir :

 

ELG sur étoile dans un ovale couronné. : Acceptation définitive post 1893.

 

Perron : inspection post 1853.

 

12 C dans un losange : calibre, en usage de 1898 à 1924.

 

SCH surmonté d’un lion stylisé : épreuve facultative à la poudre sans fumée (Schultze),

                                                      En usage de 1891 à 1968.

 

17,4 : calibre en mm : en usage de 1889 à nos jours.

 

P 1K535, 2 : poids du canon pouvant tirer des poudres sans fumée (arme lisse), en usage

                    De 1892 à 1924.

 

D = ?????? (illisible sur la photo) Longueur de la chambre en mm et diamètre en mm

                                                      Après épreuve facultative à la poudre sans fumée.

En usage de v1892 à 1924.

 

Les marques

 

HENRI PIEPER A LIEGE : marque du fabricant, rue des Bayards à LIEGE (voir sa fiche sur le site).

 

Canon OXFORD Extra (si bien lu ?) Grand Prix de Paris 1880 : sans commentaires. 

 

Marque du chevalier BAYARD : marque du fabricant ci-dessus.

 

SPECIALE EMPLOI POUDRE BLANCHE : se disait de la poudre vive par opposition à la poudre noire.

 

GG

 

Identification 5107

 

L’arme

 

Il s’agit d’un fusil de chasse à percussion centrale

Les canons en damas sont juxtaposés et à âme lisse.

La fermeture se fait à l’aide d’une clé placée sous le pontet de sous-garde.

Les platines sont « en arrière » et les chiens extérieurs à percuteurs apparents.

La crosse en bois de noyer ( ?) est façonnée à l’anglaise.

 

Les poinçons

 

Elle est frappée des poinçons du banc d’épreuves de Liège, à savoir :

 

ELG sur étoile dans un ovale vertical : acceptation définitive en usage de 1846 à 1893.

 

Perron : inspection post 1853.

 

M et Z étoilés : contremarques des contrôleurs post 1877.

 

EL en lettres anglaises : épreuve provisoire, en usage de 1852 à nos jours.

 

18.2  17.4 : canons chokés : calibrés en mm à 22 cm de la culasse et à la bouche.

                   En usage de 1898 à 1910.

 

Période de fabrication : les poinçons ci-dessus, nous indique une période de fabrication allant de 1898 à 1910.

 

Marquages

 

SYSTEME H. ROCHATTE BREVETE A PARIS : indique que cette arme est au système ROCHATTE mais j’ignore de quoi il s’agit n’ayant pas accès aux brevets français.

 

N° 4993 : numéro de série.

 

HR dans un cercle : marque de l’inventeur.

 

Fabrication : il était très fréquent que les industriels armuriers français du XIXe siècle viennent faire fabriquer leurs armes à LIEGE ou la main d’œuvre était nombreuse, qualifié et moins cher que partout ailleurs !

 

GG

 

Identification 5108

Hello,

It is indeed a French rifle, here are the answers of the specialists.

Alain

 

Hello

It is indeed an ordinary punch of test black powder of Saint Etienne.

But I don’t know to what corresponds this 17.2.

To my knowledge, gauge 18 doesn’t exist ….

To give an idea: gauge 12 fact a little more than 18 mm (gun without choke, as the machine which undoubtedly occupies us), a gauge 16 fact a little less than 17 Misters the 17.2 COULD be a gauge 16 (with the accent on the conditional one).

As for LRE: there are thirty pages of arms manufacturers whose name starts with L… in Jarlier/Buignier: not the time of all to read!

Oscar

 

Good evening,

Rifle with percussion of the ID 1918 is a traditional piston rifle of cal 16 manufactured in Saint Etienne.

The punch of test is that in function between 1869 and 1879, which is very late for a rifle with percussion, and makes me think of a rifle export or of draft, because it is of very ordinary quality, without squares, engraving and with a barrel in iron.

The mark of gunner LRE is unknown for me.

Jacques (France)

 

 

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