Identification 3206

 

Here a beautiful shotgun SXS with locks of the house Louis Christophe of Brussels. Engraving is signed M. Hannay.

The house Louis Christophe was well-known in Brussels until the beginning of the years 1970. Located Gallery of the Queen, it is related to Henri Mangeot, then in Joseph Montigny.

M. Hannay is an engraver of Liège which one finds the trace street of Kinkempois with Angleur in 1929. He is mentioned in the 1933.1935 and 1938 old directory at another address, street saint Paul, 39. In the directory of 1944, it is always with the same address but as a grocer (one can suppose that it had “to be recycled” during the 2nd GM…). It does not appear any more in the directory of 1953.

GP with the very appreciated assistance of PHL.

 

Identification 3207

 

Here a traditional juxtaposed rifle of the FN. The weapon passed by two proofhouses.

 

Belgian markings

 

ELG on star in crowned oval: acceptance between 1893 and 1968

 

12 C in vertical rhombus: gauge between 1898 and 1924

 

Peron: inspection since 1853

Lion on PV: test with the smoke-free powder between 1898 and 1968

 

R under star: countermark of a controller since 1877

 

P 1 kg???.4: weight of the barrel between 1892 and 1924

 

D 65 mm over 20.6: length of the room and diameter in mm after the optional test with the smoke-free powder between 1892 and 1924

 

English markings (provided)

R under crown: new test in England for a foreign weapon

BNP: punch of Birmingham since February 1st, 1955

12x65: gauges and length of the room? It is neither a Belgian punch nor an English punch…

18.2: undoubtedly the diameter in mm.

850 BAR: undoubtedly pressure

I see also two swords crossed with letters: that resembles by far the old English punches of before 1904…

Consequently, I can say that, according to the Belgian punches, the weapon was manufactured with the FN between 1898 and 1924 and even before 1922 being given the absence of yearly letter (practical started in 1922).

It was undoubtedly exported in England and was represented with the proofhouse of Birmingham after 1955. But I am not explained the 12x65, I want to say the length of the casing expressed in mm and not in inches… Unless there was a passage in a third proofhouse ?

GP

 

Identification 3208

 

Here a semi-automatic pistol of pocket, probably gauges some 6.35, manufactured by the house Auguste Francotte, on a patent deposited in 1913 by Emile Hermann (who, curiously, does not appear in “Who's who arms manufacture of Liège) and Charles Parent (registered with proofhouse of Liège 1912).

Markings

A Francotte à Liege: very well known house activates of 1810 to 1991 in Liege

Patent 19141: mystery, because it does not appear (and due, to see further) among the very many patents deposited by the house Auguste Francotte.

626: undoubtedly the number of the weapon?

In fact, and thanks to the searchs for MAX, it Appert that this gun was designed per MM Emile Hermann and Charles Parent, who deposited on June 19th, 1913 patent 257794 referring to the pistol in question. The house Auguste Francotte is thus the manufacturer, but not the inventor. It also designed a gun of pocket around 1912, but it is not the gun under review.

Let us note that Emile Hermann had already deposited a patent for a small gun in 1910 under number 224179, but it does not have any relationship with this one.

Also let us raise that A.B. Zhuk announces also the existence of a pistol Hermann (n° 1451, page 182), but it has any relationship neither with the patent of 1910, nor with that under review.

GP with the effective assistance of MAX

 

Identification 3210

  

Here a revolver of average quality to five shots of gauge not communicated, copy of models Colt, rigged out of registered trademarks by Charles Clément in 1893.

Markings

ELG on star in oval under crown: acceptance enters on July 11th, 1893 and on February 26th, 1968

F under star: countermark of the controller between 1877 and 1968

The White House: registered trademark by Charles Clément on June 21st, 1893

The Washington 38: registered trademark by Charles Clément on June 21st, 1893

Provided being given the quality of the photograph: C Clemen (T) S Arms Manufacturers

They are by way of a copy Colt revolvers, either the Colt New Line manufactured between 1873 and 1884, or the Colt New Police COP & Thug (also called House Pistol and New Line Police) manufactured between 1882 and 1886.

Charles Clément was registered with the proofhouse of Liege of 1906 to 1914. He deposited of 1883 until his death not less than 35 patents for revolvers, guns and rifles, and 14 trademarks between 1893 and 1912.

The CT on the plate of stick always asks question: CT for ClemenT?

GP with the assistance of PHL, MD and RD

 

Identification 3213

 

Here a beautiful rifle with juxtaposed barrels, stick pistol and forearm with push rod, manufactured in 1928 (yearly letter G).

Markings

R crowned: rifled bores, between 1894 and 1968

G: yearly letter for 1928

p under asterisk: countermark of the controller since 1877

PV on lion: test with the smoke-free powder, between 1898 and 1968

ELG on asterisk in crowned oval: acceptance between 1893 and 1968

Peron: inspection since 1853

Crowned JF: should be the gunner Jean Falla but according to the sources of which I lay out, it was active starting from 1931.

Acier martelé (Hammered steel): type of steel used

.450/400 express 3 ¼ balle blindée (if I read well because one struck another thing “armor-plated” which I cannot decipher): gauge rifle, a long cartridge with pad whose average dimensions are 10.3 of diameter and 83 mm length, appeared in 1880 according to Bernard Meyer. A very popular gauge until the appearance of the 375 magnum.

10.1: should be the diameter of the barrel in mm

EL: provisional test since 1852

T under asterisk: countermark of the controller since 1877

Mark EB: Braekers establishments deposited on July 7th, 1927

JAMIN: “who's who arms manufacture of Liège” mentions Jamin Marcel, arms manufacturer quay Saint-Léonard 41 in Liege, registered with the proofhouse between 1910 and 1933.

EB interlaced in a double ellipse: registered trademark on July 7th, 1927 by the Establishments Braekers SA, (BE of 1921 to 1935). Charles Braekers deposited before and after the 1GM about fifteen patents, mainly for the shotguns.

One can think that it is about a rifle manufactured by Braekers and sold by Jamin. But without certainty.

GP with the appreciated assistance of PHL and HPH

 

Identification 3217

 

Here a beautiful rifle juxtaposed with external hammers, forearm with push rod, squared "pistol" handle, lever enters the hammers, barrels more than probably to Damas, marked Lepage in Liege. Locks and trigger guard are nicely engraved in particular with animals.

Markings

ELG on asterisk in crowned rhombus: acceptance between 1893 and 1968

 

12 on C in rhombus: gauge of 1898 to 1924

 

Peron: inspection since 1853

 

LC: quasi certainly the initial ones of Lucien Clement, gunner with Nessonvaux

 

EL: provisional test since 1852

 

G under asterisk: countermark of the controller between 1877 and 1968

 

I am a little astonished not to see a photograph(s) weight of the barrel (marking introduces in 1892), of possible the chokes, length of the room (marking introduces in 1892) since the weapon is after 1898. In the same way, I am a little astonished to see such a rifle of beautiful invoice being with black powder after 1898… But which am I…

Finally and especially, I lose myself in the history of the Lepage arms manufacturer: if I read well “Who's who arms manufacture of Liège, the “Manufactory Lepage” was activates of 1919 to 1961. This rifle former to this period since is thus marked “simply” Lepage in Liege. However, according to publicity appearing on page 163 of “Who's who”, the company exists since 1790. But how it signed its production being given all the associations and recoveries largely evoked in “Who's who”...

In short, still much of questions…

GP

 

Identification 3218

 

Here a beautiful juxtaposed lock rifle manufactured by the firm Auguste Francotte for the Hungarian arms manufacturer Josz. Kirner in Budapest, taken again in 1905 by Johan Pirk. Pretty engravings.

Markings :

 

Peron: inspection since 1853

 

EL: provisional test since 1852

 

12 on C in rhombus: gauge of 1898 to 1924

 

ELG on asterisk in crowned oval: acceptance between 1893 and 1968

 

A badly struck marking of a tree surrounded by the letters A and F: one of the many marks of the house Auguste Francotte.

 

AB under asterisk: countermark of the controller of 1877 to 1968

 

Choke 17.6 (?) over 18.0: chokes barrels, of use between 1910 and 1924.

 

I do not see marking for the length of the room and the diameter in mm. In theory of use of 1892 to 1924.

 

Budapesten Kirner Josz: see low

Utoda Pirk J: successor Pirk J.

 

There is also a marking for the type of steel used for the guns, but I can decipher only Martin Steel. Perhaps is this “Siemens Martin Steel”. It surrounds crowned letters AF: one of the many marks of the house Auguste Francotte.

 

The dynasty Hungarian arms manufacturer Kirner goes back to Georg Kirner (1781-1847), originating in Bavaria, bench with Ofen then with Pest (one of the two cities having constituted Budapest).

He succeeded his son Josef (1809-1869), credit between 1832 and 1861.

The son of this last was called also Josef (1838-1916). He was arquebusier of the Court.  He sold his company in 1905 to Johann Pirk (o).

There exist many publicities of this Kirner house, just as of the shotguns of top quality.

 

GP with the effective and appreciated assistance PHL.

 

Identification 3222

  

Here a boxlock flint pistol, pistol of bronze tromblon, safety of hammer, marked (rather awkwardly) HJ Bury on the two sides of the box.

There is no identifiable punch on the transmitted photographs.

There was many Bury in Liege with 18th and 19th century, of which a Henry-Joseph between 1791 and 1813 according to Neue Stockel.

According to Jarlier/Buigné, the aforementioned Henry-Joseph is located between 1780 and 1810 (he is written 1880-1810 but it is quasi certainly about a typing error).

At all events, the weapon dates well from the period 1790-1810 and can thus be allotted to Henry-Joseph Bury.

The Museum of Weapons of Liege has a blunderbuss or a espingole carrying the same signature: this weapon was manufactured between 1780 and 1810.

GP and HPH

 

Identification 3226

 

Here a curious revolver of calibre not specified, with interior hammer (also called uneven) and folding trigger, whose handle can slide in order to reduce the obstruction of the revolver. Blocking/releasing of the handle is probably done via the button located on the right of framework. Door of side loading on the right. Stem swivelling in line with cylinder.

Markings

Lion on PV: test with the smoke-free powder between 1898 and 1968

There should be other punches between the rooms of cylinder (in particular a ELG on star in crowned oval).

C crowned: it would be normally a punch of controller, but it is hardly possible since this kind of punch with crown was used between 1853 and 1877. However, the weapon is after 1898. Thus not identified until now.

Thanks to the searchs of Max, one can allot this system of handle sliding to Michel Thonon son, arms manufacturer with Corinhez-Housse, which deposited in 1909 four patents, including 220480 (on November 16th, 1909) which corresponds in the broad outlines to the weapon presented. The latter has however an improvement in the shape of a button on the right side of the framework for - probably since we were not pleased to have the machine in hand - blocking and freeing the handle. In the original version of the patent of Michel Thonon, there is a system of spring(s) which blocks the handle in position high or low, but not the aforementioned button.

GP with MAX and Alan.

 

 

Identification 3227

 

Here a shotgun juxtaposed to external hammers, stick pistol, engravings, quality and completion very average.

Markings

Peron: inspection since 1853

1 kg 440: weight of the barrel, of use since 1924

I: yearly letter for 1930 (provided)

M under star: countermark of the controller between 1877 and 1968

Lion on PV: test with the powder lives of 1898 to 1968

EL: provisional test since 1852

ELG on star in crowned oval: acceptance between 1893 and 1968

F under star: countermark of the controller between 1877 and 1968

12-65 in omega lying: gauge nominal and length of the casing since 1924

18.4 and 18.3: gauge in mm since 1889

"Nitro Proved" and "Fire Armes" (sic) C° Liege: I do not find them in the file of the registered trademarks in Belgium. There was well an English version of Manufacture of Liège of firearms in 1901, but she is “Liege Fire Arms Manufacturing C° Ltd”.

Does the typing error "ARMES", therefore in French, instead of "ARMS", challenge to me ..... would be a forgery?

Nitro Proved exists well in England, but for rifles and rifles military (1916).

Consequently, I have the feeling which these English mentions are booby-traps… but I do not affirm it either.

GP with the assistance of HPH and Max.

 

Identification 3229

 

Voici une arme longue relevant du système Remington Rolling Block « mis à la sauce liégeoise ». Son propriétaire aurait pu préciser s’il s’agit d’un canon lisse ou rayé. Il se pourrait aussi qu’il y ait des marquages sous le canon (= dévisser la vis du fût) concernant notamment le calibre. Je présume que le levier à droite sert à démonter l’arme en deux pièces.

Perron : inspection depuis 1853

S sous étoile : contremarque de contrôleur entre 1877 et 1968

FDC traversé d’une flèche vers la droite : peut-être François Dumoulin (actif depuis 1870 selon une source française) ou François Dumoulin et Cie, mais j’ai des doutes sérieux car

1° selon la même source française, la marque de François Dumoulin déposée en 1881 est une flèche vers la droite traversant les lettres DDF (et donc pas FDC comme ici);

2° la société François Dumoulin et Cie a été inscrite au Banc d’épreuves de 1908 à 1968, ce qui ne correspond pas avec le marquage suivant :

GD en lettres anglaises : en principe Gilles Decortis de Cheratte, qui a déposé huit brevets entre 1851 et 1875, aucun ne se rapportant à l’engin en question. Jarlier/Buigné situe sa période d’activité entre 1856 et 1887.

Donc rien de certain, que du contraire..

GP avec HPH et MD

 

Identification 3231

 

 

Here a traditional shotgun juxtaposed to external hammers, stick pistol and key of opening Top Lever.

Markings

EL: provisional test since 1852

Choke 16.6 over 16.6: chokes barrels, of use of 1910 to 1924

Peron: inspection since 1853

U and P under star: countermarks of controllers of 1877 to 1968

16 C in vertical rhombus: indication of the gauge of 1898 to 1924

ELG on star in crowned oval: meaning of 1893 to 1968

ACCT in a circle: should be the mark of the manufacturer of barrels Lucien Clément of Nessonvaux.

V in square: not identified

Choke Bore: indicate that the barrels are chokes.

In all logic, this rifle was manufactured between 1910 and 1924.

GP

 

Identification 3232

 

Revolver with percussion with box frame and black powder.

The barrel is with 8 sides with small dovetail front sight inserted and bead cut in the amount of hammer.

The smooth cylinder is with six chimneys.

The stick east seems it of only one part, out of wood of walnut finely squared. It ends in a metal cap.

The whole of the metal parts carries engravings of sheets of vine branch.

Punches

The weapon carries the punches of the proofhouse of Liege, namely:

ELG on star in an oval: final acceptance, of use of 1846 to 1893.

U crowned: countermark of the controller, of use of 1853 to 1877.

Period of manufacture: between 1853 and 1877.

Markings

The weapon carries the mark of its inventor, namely D. RENOTTE Breveté (Patent)

Dieudonné RENOTTE, Joseph, was an arms manufacturer with COVER LEZ LIEGE since 1853. He was a then “platinor” (manufacturer of lock) to Liege. During the period of 1856 to 1859, it deposits 5 Belgian patents for:

- Improvements with pistols and rifles.

- Modifications and improvements brought to firearms with DANDOY.C.

- Modifications made to the system of firearms revolver with DANDOY C.

- A double trigger with departure continuous or at will applicable to the revolvers, with DANDOY. C manufacturer of weapons.

- An addition with the closing of the weapons revolvers (with DANDOY.C.)

DANDOY Célestin manufacturer of weapons was registered with the proofhouse of 1846 to 1865. From 1865 to 1867, it created company DANDOY Célestin & Co.

GG †

Note : You can see another weapon very similair here : Renotte Dieudonné Joseph

 

Identification 3235

 

Voici un classique revolver à percussion centrale se rapprochant du modèle Constabulary mais dans ce cas-ci, la crosse est arrondie. Portière de chargement à droite, baguette d’éjection pivotante dans l’axe du barillet. Six coups, calibre non précisé, sans doute un .320. Sûreté de chien à gauche. Anneau de calotte. Canon en partie octogonal et rond.

Les marquages

ELG sur étoile dans ovale couronné : acceptation entre 1893 et 1968

Double p sous étoile : sans doute la contremarque d’un contrôleur entre 1877 et 1968

C couronné sur le barillet : non identifié ; ce ne peut être la contremarque d’un contrôleur d’avant 1877 puisque l’arme a été fabriquée au plus tôt en 1921…

EF ou EP (?) sur la carcasse côté gauche : pourraient être les initiales d’Emile Fraipont, inscrit au Banc d’épreuves de Liège entre 1903 et 1927, fabricant d’armes, rue Monulphe 45 à Liège.

LA : sans doute la marque du fondeur, non identifié

SF dans un cercle en dessous des plaquettes de crosse : sans doute la marque déposée par la société Schroeder Frères le 26 février 1921. La fabrique d’armes SPRL Schroeder Frères, Max et Charles Edouard, rue Simonon 8 à Liège, a été inscrite au Banc d’épreuves de Liège entre 1919 et 1938. Ils succèdent à leur père Edouard. Ils avaient une succursale à Bruxelles, rue des Comédiens, 26.

Le fait que les initiales EF soient apparentes peut nous mener à penser que l’arme a quasi certainement été vendue par Emile Fraipont : les initiales SF dans un cercle sont en effet dissimulées sous les plaquettes de la poignée. Mais je ne suis pas certain à 100% qu’il s’agisse bien d’une part des initiales EF, d’autre part que le SF dans un cercle soit bien la marque de Schroeder Frères.

GP avec l’aide d’Alan

 

Identification 3236

 

For understanding well it is necessary to look at the two united series of page:

- Casimir Lefaucheux Arquebusier 1802-1852 pages 83 to 86 of Gerald Lautissier

- The saga of the shotguns Lefaucheux pages 23 to 28 of JC Mournetas

 

This single stroke rifle was produced by Casimir Lefaucheux in Paris, in the workshops of the 5 street JJ Rousseau.

Rifle resulting from patent 5138 of January 28th, 1833 and addition of March 13th, 1833.

The patent and milked addition of the key of swing thus of the opening of the barrels.

 

The chimneys are placed generally directly on the barrels, here they are on the rocker what is rarer (more difficult has to realize)

 

GUILLAUME

 

Identification 3237

 

Here a revolver of quality, calibre .320 to five shots, round barrel, foldable trigger, bearing on the plates letters CC interlaced of Charles Clément.

Markings

 

R crowned: rifled bore, of 1894 to 1968

 

ELG on star in crowned oval: acceptance between 1893 and 1968

 

W under star: countermark of controller of 1877 to 1968

 

C under crown: not identified, perhaps the mark of the founder?

 

17345: undoubtedly the number of manufacturing

 

Charles Philibert Joseph Clement, gunmaker, street Chéri 37 in Liege was registered with the proofhouse of Liege of 1906 to 1914. From 1883 to 1912, year of its death, it deposited not less than 35 patents, but a priori, none seems to relate to the weapon presented here. He also deposited 14 trademarks between 1893 and 1912.

 

GP

 

Identification 3239

 

Here a musketon with percussion with its long bayonet, marked GB for Belgian government. Its owner was well inspired by us to communicate the main features of them: overall length 114 cm, length of the gun 75 cm, weight 3.165 kg, gauges 17.5 mm, eight stripes.

Apparent markings are

GB: Belgian government

JP 50 in a hexagon: probably a marks of controller.

N overcome of a rhombus: probably a marks of controller.

There are undoubtedly still other punches under the barrel.

There is also a macaroon in the stick, undoubtedly that of the "Manufacture d’Armes de l’Etat" in Liege.

One as twice sees the date of 1850, more as probably that of the manufacturing of the weapon.

One sees also a number and the date of 1835 on the butt plate: it is perhaps about a recovery of an older weapon.

As there is no regimental marking of the Belgian army, one can conclude that this weapon was perhaps intended for the Belgian customs. The National museum of the Customs in Antwerp exposed there is a few years a musketon in one of its windows. It would be necessary to be able to compare it to be sure of my assumption.

GP

 

 

Identification 3240

 

Here a superimposed rifle with two triggers of Belgian manufacturing.

Markings

Peron: inspection since 1853

ELG on star in crowned oval: acceptance between 1893 and 1968

1kg259: weight of the barrel, since 1924

P turned over under star: countermark of a controller since 1877

Lion on PV: test with the smoke-free powder since 1924

CHOKE 16.9: barrel choke between 1924 and1968

16-70 in omega lying: gauge nominal and length of the room, since 1924

EL: provisional test since 1852

Y under star: countermark of a controller since 1877

"p": if what I read is well a "p", it is the yearly letter of 1937

JS: undoubtedly the punch of the manufacturer of barrel. Already met but not identified yet.

"Canon demi block best fluid steel" on a paper: I suppose that it is the type of steel used. I do not know where figure this registration nor which is its exact contents.

31951 must be the number of manufacturing of the weapon.

GP

 

Identification 3241

 

Here a pistol with percussion with two superimposed barrels, marked H. Petitjean Liege. It could have been used for hunting to complete big game. The rather rudimentary manufacturing made me somewhat think of a manufacturing of the 20th century, but which am I…

Markings

Peron: inspection since 1853

R crowned (if I see well, but I am not sure whole): countermark of a controller between1853 and 1877

ELG on star in oval: acceptance between 1818and 1893

X under star: countermark of a controller between 1877 and 1968 and

v pennies star: countermark of a controller between 1877 and 1968: there is contradiction with the R crowned mentioned above (in so far as it is indeed a R crowned of course…)

16.0: diameter of the barrel? To check by the owner

3382: the number of the weapon

I believe to distinguish letters EL, but I am not sure: it could be a question of the provisional test, since 1852

JD or JF (in a letter) D: undoubtedly the manufacturer of the barrel; not identified.

The name of Henri Petitjean is included in Jarlier-Buigné and Stockel, but it is about an active arms manufacturer between 1770 and 1790 (even 1799 according to Stockel). What thus does not correspond with the machine presented, since it is with percussion and thus posterior of more than twenty years to the working life evoked above. The known parts of this arms manufacturer are of a definitely higher quality, as one can see them on the following link: http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20p/a%20petitjean%20fr.htm

A contrario, one of the weapons presented in the link in question is also a pistol with percussion… but of definitely higher manufacture.

The purists will have as noticed as Liege east written on the barrel of this pistol with a grave accent (orthography in force since a decree of the Regent in 1946), whereas one would have more expected an acute accent… But it is not that a remark of (old EM…) purist… the more so as it is well-known that the orthography of the proper names “fluctuated” with the wire of the centuries, in Liège/Liége too!

In conclusion, doubts remain on the attribution of this part with Henri Petitjean (fine 18th century). Unless it is about a later homonym, unknown until now. Or of a skilful forger, using the name of a well-known arms manufacturer in Liege end of the 18th century, since having provided weapons to the revolutionists…

GP with the assistance of HPH.

 

Identification 3242

 

Voici une peu courante carabine mixte type Warnant à deux canons superposés et deux détentes mais un seul chien, au-dessus en .22 Flobert long, en dessous en 9 mm Flobert court, donc à percussion annulaire dans les deux cas. Je présume que le canon supérieur est rayé, l’inférieur lisse. L’heureux propriétaire aurait pu le signaler.

Les marquages

Perron : inspection depuis 1853

ELG sur étoile dans ovale couronné : acceptation entre 1893 et 1968

FL 9 m C : calibre 9 mm Flobert court

8.6 : diamètre intérieur du canon inférieur

FL .22 L : calibre .22 Flobert long

5.4 : diamètre intérieur du canon supérieur

A sous étoile, AB sous étoile, J sous étoile : contremarques de contrôleurs (entre 1877 et 1968)

Je crois aussi distinguer le L faisant partie du poinçon EL pour l’épreuve provisoire, depuis 1852.

Il est bien dommage que le fabricant/armurier n’ait pas mentionné son nom sur cette carabine sortant du commun.

Je ne m’explique pas la présence de deux détentes ; je ne crois pas qu’il s’agisse d’une détente type stecher sur une telle carabine de jardin…mais ce n’est pas impossible non plus. L’heureux propriétaire pourrait-il éclairer ma lanterne ?

 

GP

 

Identification 3243

 

Voici un classique fusil de chasse juxtaposé de fabrication belge, à chiens extérieurs, platines arrière, crosse anglaise, gravure sommaire. Marqué Boston sur la bande entre les deux canons.

Les marquages

Perron : inspection depuis 1853

16 sur C dans losange vertical : calibre de 1898 à 1924

R et L sous étoile : contremarques de contrôleurs de 1877 à 1968

EL : épreuve provisoire depuis 1852

ELG sur étoile dans ovale couronné : acceptation entre 1893 et 1968

VJ : peut-être le poinçon du canonnier, non identifié.

La marque Boston ne figure pas dans le petit livre vert des marques déposées en Belgique.

Il existe bien un (beau) type de damas appelé Boston, généralement destiné aux fusils de luxe, mais on ne peut pas dire que ce fusil-ci soit « de luxe ».

Ses canons ne sont apparemment pas en damas ; il faudrait les soumettre à un traitement (ne serait-ce que du jus de citron, paraît-il) pour s’en assurer.

 

Donc mystère… ou tentative de tromperie ?

 

GP avec l’aide de HPH

 

Identification 3244

  

Here an outline of juxtaposed rifle whose only barrels are completed and tested.

Markings

Peron: inspection since 1853

S and V under star: countermarks of controllers of 1877 to 1968

PV on Lion: test with the powder lives between 1898 and 1968

3441: undoubtedly the number of manufacturing of the barrels

EL: provisional test since 1852

Choke 18.4: barrel choke to 22 cm of the breech, 1924 to 1968. I wonder why the number 18.4 is not on the same line as the word choke. Especially, this kind of wording of choke was applied of 1924 to 1968. Mystery… because in contradiction with the three following punches:

P 1 K 325.5: weight of the barrel of 1892 to 1924

12 C in vertical rhombus: gauge of 1898 to 1924

D= 70 mm over 20.6: length of the room and diameter of the barrel after the optional test with the smoke-free powder, of 1892 to 1924.

There is also an odd letter (on the left of V under star), which I believed being Greek and which could thus have been a yearly letter. But there is problem since I do not recognize any Greek letter (I know, a long time ago that I studied the Greek…). And the Greek yearly letters were used between 1948 and 1961 if my information is good. However, like say the last three punches, rifle goes back at the latest to 1924.

According to the colleagues of the group of identifications and eminent other specialists, it could be a question of a letter B badly struck; the letter B is the yearly letter of 1923, therefore that could “stick”. But without guarantee none.

GP with the assistance of HPH and PHL

 

Identification 3245

 

I would like to thank well the owner of this pin revolver for having had kindness and the intelligence to draw up the list of all the markings found on his revolver. That facilitates much work and saves my tired eyes… If all the applicants of information did as much of it, the life would be beautiful…

Here thus a pin revolver with opened box, octagonal barrel and side rod of ejection of the casings of very average quality, undoubtedly gauges 7 mm and out of run cast iron of them, as one manufactured some much in Liège, still a long time after the appearance of the smoke-free powder.

Markings

ELG on star in crowned oval: acceptance between 1893 and 1968

R crowned: rifled bore, in application between 1894 and 1968

J under star (three times): countermark of the controller since 1877 until 1968

AS under star, a plate of grips: one could think of the well-known arms manufacturers Albert Simonis or Albert Spirlet, but it is not very probable, on the one hand being given the “quality” of the weapon, on the other hand owing to the fact that these initial is under a plate of stick, therefore non visible.

FG?: not identified

W: undoubtedly the founder.

GP

 

Identification 3246

 

Here a pin revolver of gauge not specified (undoubtedly 7 or 9 mm) with a shield to protect the pins. The octagonal barrel is surmounted by a band finishing in language of snake on both sides of the hammer; the band is fixed at the breech by two vertical screws. One thinks of the revolvers designed by the Merolla brothers, but on their premises, the screws are horizontal. See the site littlegun http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20m/a%20merolla%20fils%20fr.htm

 

There are only few markings:

ELG on star in oval: acceptance until 1893.

L under star: countermark of a controller between 1877 and 1968

AS under star, a plate of stick: one could think of the well-known arms manufacturers Albert Simonis or Albert Spirlet, but it is not very probable, owing to the fact that these initial is under a plate of stick, therefore not visible.

GP

 

Identification 3252

 

En annexe un exemple du marquage de canon original de Remington.

Il s'agit ici d'un pistolet à l'état mint, donc jamais utilisé.

 

 Question l'arme présentée dans la demande est t'elle belge ?

Je n'en sais rien et j'en doute fort, à cause du marquage Remington sur le canon. 

Il s'agit à première vue d'un 2è modèle (6.000 ex produits entre 1868 et 1888) avec le marquage sur 2 lignes sur le plat supérieur du canon. C'est le seul modèle à porter ce marquage sur 2 lignes.

 

MAIS...

 

1. La forme du bouton d'extracteur n'est pas bonne: la partie quadrillée devrait être ovale et le quadrillage plus fin

2. Les marquages sont pleins de fôtes d'ortaugraffe, et même dans un tunnel obscur on voit à 20 mètres qu'ils ont été apposés avec des poinçons individuels au lieu du roller die habituel. De plus, le modèle des lettres n'est pas le bon.

3. La forme de la tête du chien est un peu gnugnugnu, mais bon, ce n'est pas là un critère certain.

 

Autres remarques:

 

- Tous ces pistolets ont le n° de série frappé sous le canon et sous la plaquette gauche. Ceux du 2è modèle sont numérotés de 1 à environ 6000.

- Les Liégeois sont capables de tout copier, mais à mon avis bien peu se risqueraient à copier des marquages d'aussi près, par peur des amendes parfois énormes pour plagiat. 

- Je ne connais pas de poinçon belge "G couronné", ce n'est en tout cas pas un poinçon d'épreuve liégeois.

Je vais chercher dans le Directory pour essayer de l'identifier.

 

Marcel

 

Identification 3255

Here is a rifle of shooting of the family of the rifles Martini Francotte, with heavy barrel, rest-finger on the trigger guard, beautiful rest-head, hook probably serving also as counterweight. The calibre is unfortunately not specified. As there are graduations from 1 to 16 on the barrel, it could be that it is about a rifle for the shooting at long distance.

The markings

ELG on star in crowned oval: acceptance between 1893 and 1968

 

R crowned: indicates that the barrel is rifled; between 1894 and 1968

 

W under star: countermark of controller between 1877 and 1968

 

Peron (Little step): inspection since 1853

 

Lion on PV: test with the powder without smoke between 1898 and 1968

 

MP : unidentified

 

AF crowned patent : mark of the house Auguste Francotte.

 

GP with the efficient and appreciated help of MD.

 

Identification 3262

 

Here a sabre-revolver for cartridges with pin, of gauge not specified, marked HG and Son for Henry Goossens and Fils.

In fact, as it arises from the http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20g/a%20goossens%20fr.htm note published “in illo tempore”, Henry Goossens represented Ambrogio Micheloni of Milan for the deposit of his patent 17084 in 1864. The following year, Henry Goossens deposited itself patent 18912 also referring to a sabre-revolver.

Markings

 

ELG on star in oval: acceptance between 1818 and 1893

 

H.G.et Patented Sons: Henry Goossens and Fils, street Trapped 3 in Liege, registered with the proofhouse of 1848 to 1885.

345: serial number?

V under crown (?): countermark of a controller from 1853 to 1877.

It will be noticed that the tail of trigger was modified compared to the weapon already presented before and compared to the patent.

GP with GG and MD

 

 

Identification 3272

 

Voici un pistolet à percussion à deux canons et deux détentes, marqué Lambert à Liège. Ciselures sur le pontet et la calotte, avec un décor quasi identique d’instruments de musique (lyre, deux trompettes et deux tambours ; je n’y vois aucune symbolique particulière). L’anneau de calotte assez frustre me semble postérieur à l’arme.

 

J’ai l’impression qu’il s’agit d’une arme à silex datant de la deuxième moitié du XVIIIe siècle transformée à percussion vers 1830 : en effet, la forme de la crosse et son ornementation sont en tout cas XVIIIe, pas XIXe.  Mais je ne vois pas de trace des trous de la batterie et du ressort de batterie ; ils ont peut-être été très bien rebouchés... Ou l’on a placé des nouvelles platines lors de la mise à percussion…

Je ne distingue aucun poinçon d’épreuve liégeoise. Je crois déchiffrer les lettres TW sur une étoile, surmontées d’une couronne. Il existe bien un Toussaint Wasseige renseigné comme canonnier, mais je ne connais pas sa période d’activité.

 

Quant à Lambert à Liège, il y en a plusieurs.

Le « Qui est qui de l’armurerie liégeoise » mentionne Lambert dit Biron, entre 1810 et 1836 d’après Pasleau.

 

Jarlier/Buigné mentionne Spinas Lambert, arquebusier à Liège entre 1770 et 1810. « Vu sur paire de pistolets et également sur des pistolets à boule de fulminate ».

Aussi « Jean Lambert dit Biron, fabricant et négociant en armes à Liège entre 1782 et 1802. Vu sur un fusil à air comprimé de 18-20 coups en 1782 ».

Ils citent aussi « Jacques Lambert, négociant en armes à Liège avec son frère Aymard Lambert ».

Heer les cite également dans son Neue Stöckel, suggérant qu’ils sont les fils du précédent, Jean Lambert dit Biron.

Plus loin, Jarlier/Buigné citent « Jean-Joseph Lambert (né en 1782) et Jean-Mathieu Lambert dit Biron, fabricants et négociants en armes à Liège en 1807-1810. Ce dernier, selon Heer, signait ses armes « JM Lambert dit Biron ».

Personnellement - mais cela n’engage bien sûr que moi et je suis ouvert à toute suggestion/correction - je penche pour

Spinas Lambert étant donné la forme de la crosse typique des années 1770. Ce qui signifierait qu’il y a eu transformation à percussion par la suite.

 

GP

 

Identification 3279

 

Iden 3279 garden rifle Warnant style FL 22

Here is a garden or living room rifle, Warnant type with tilting breech, octagonal short barrel, Flobert caliber. 22 C, with semi-pistol stock. It is an extremely common model that was manufactured in thousands of copies before and after the 1st GM.

The markings

 

There is a "Belgium" on the barrel, which indicates if necessary that the weapon was manufactured in Belgium.

There may also be another explanation: see the attached link, where the second photo shows the inscription Henri Pieper Belgium. When we clean the barrel, we'll see - miracle? - the name of Henri Pieper?

http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20p/a%20pieper%20h%20carabine%20warnant%20gb.htm

 

The link also and especially gives the patent of J. Warnant.

 

The LLH marking under the barrel refers to Laurent Lochet-Habran, manufacturer of weapons and rifle barrels.

 

H: could be the brand of the weapons manufacturer Max Neumann.

 

Peron: is located on both the barrel and the breech, it is the inspection punch since 1853

 

R crowned: rifled barrel, between 1894 and 1968

 

ELG on star in crowned oval: acceptance between 1893 and 1968

 

AE under star: countermark of controller between 1877 and 1968

 

FL 22 C: short. 22 caliber. It will probably not be easy to find this type of cartridge because it is no longer used much nowadays.

GP with the help of PHL.

 

Identification 3281

 

Voici un fusil de chasse juxtaposé à chiens extérieurs, crosse anglaise, longuesse à poussoir, clé supérieure, de la maison H. Mahillon à Bruxelles.

 

Les marquages

 

ELG sur étoile dans ovale couronné : acceptation entre 1893 et 1968

 

Perron : inspection de 1853 à nos jours

 

Choke 18.2 et 18.3 : canons chokés, de 1924 à 1968

 

12-70 dans oméga allongé (si j’ai bien vu) : calibre nominal et longueur de la chambre depuis 1924

 

1 kg 530 : poids du canon depuis 1924

 

3540 : numéro de fabrication de l’arme

 

JF : soit Janssen Frères,, soit Jean Falla, mais c'est presque certainement Jean Falla !

 

JS: non identifié

 

D dans losange vertical : non identifié

 

U sous étoile : contremarque d’un contrôleur entre 1877 et 1968

 

Lion sur PV : épreuve à la poudre sans fumée de 1898 à 1968

C dans cercle : non identifié

 

X : lettre annale de 1945… mais je trouve curieux qu’un fusil de chasse à chiens extérieurs ait été encore fabriqué en 1945... à moins que cette lettre x ne soit pas une lettre annale…

 

Le site littlegun.be mentionne à la fois B. et H. Mahillon : http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20ma/a%20mahillon%20fr.htm

 

GP

 

Identification 3286

Here is a 9 mm box-frame six-shot pinfire revolver with a cap ring. On the cylinder the inscription "Système Lefaucheux perfectionné - déposé" (Improved Lefaucheux system - deposited). On the barrel: "Canon acier vissé" (screwed steel barrel).

 

The punches are few in number or not visible or not photographed.

 

ELG on star in oval: acceptance from 1846 to 1893

 

U crowned, two types of crowns: controller countermark, between 1853 and 1877

 

Under the plates: the letters AF (?), MJ (?) and P: probably subcontractors, not identified.

 

It is not a real revolver manufactured by Lefaucheux, neither in France nor in Liege where Lefaucheux also had a factory.

 

A revolver also marked "Système Lefaucheux perfectionné (déposé)"; has already been examined on the littlegun. be website: http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20non%20identifies/a%20artisans%20inconnus%20revolver%20broche%20lefaucheux%20fermee%20gb.htm

without being able to determine what the improved system was about: either with regard to the boxed frame or the model of the rod or barrel axis.

 

Nor does it seem to be a dual ignition model, i. e. both centerfire and pinfire, as on the machine presented on the same site:

http://www.littlegun.be/ma_collection/belgique/be%20pqrstuvwxyz/a%20be%20revolver%20double%20ignition%20gb.htm

 

According to Guillaume Van Mastrigt, who is very familiar with the history of the Lefaucheux family and its production, this is a late production, after the 1854 patent fell into the public domain (in 1869) and after the factory closed in 1873. In his opinion, it is a Liège production, very late because it is a pinfire cartridge production, whereas the central percussion was already becoming widespread; but the manufacturer used a famous name as a selling point.

 

GP with the much appreciated help of GVM.

 

Identification 3294

 

A mon humble avis et au vu du n° de série ce pistolet a été fabriqué en 1956/1958. Voir les photos en pièces jointes.

 

Cette arme à très certainement été modifiée en Allemagne, car elle possède un poinçon de contrôle allemand sur la glissière près des stries de préhension et d’autres masqués sur la même vue juste au-dessus du pontet sur la carcasse.

 

Je pense que cette arme à été customisée par l’armurier "Waffen Schwenke Helenestr,12 34454 Bad Arolsen", mais tout est relatif et je peux me tromper.

 

Le demandeur écrit : «il n'y a pas de vis pour la platine» c’est presque exact, il manque sur la carcasse le ressort et sa vis de fixation qui est une sécurité supplémentaire «chargeur en place», cela est tout simplement fait pour faciliter le tir de combat.

Cette opération se pratique aussi sur d’autres armes et notamment sur les GP 35, mais bien sûr d’une autre façon.

 

Pour ce qui est du bouton d’éjection du chargeur c’est exactement la même chose, cela ne sert qu’à faciliter le tir de combat. Cette pratique a été utilisée sur des armes d’essais P210-6 pour le combat et ceci dans les années 1976/83 par les armuriers suisses SIC/ L Crottet, et la firme Schneebeli à Winterthur, mais aussi par un armurier allemand dont je ne connais pas le nom.

 

C’est aussi pareil pour la queue de Castor.

 

Pour conclure, je me doit, à titre personnel, de constater que cette arme n’a plus rien d’une arme de collection.

Max.

 

Identification 3301

Iden partielle 3301 Vetterli.

Voici un fusil Vetterli modèle 1869/1871, fabriqué en 1876 (d’après son matricule), Ce fusil a été fabriqué à  134000  exemplaires, en ce compris 160 exemplaires de préséries mod 1869 et 1198 exemplaires mod 1869.

La plaque de couche, la hausse, et l’embouchoir sont apparemment bien du modèle 69/71.

Le poinçon figurant sur le fût est celui d’acceptation de ce dernier, ce poinçon doit aussi figurer sur la crosse.

Je suis malheureusement obligé de m’arrêter là, car dans son ensemble cette arme me paraît fortement modifiée, voir bidouillée pour la faire passer pour un autre modèle.

Pour faire une identification sérieuse, j’ai besoin de plusieurs photos à savoir ; de l’arme complète recto/verso, du dessus et du dessous sans escamoter le bout de la baguette de nettoyage !!, mais aussi une photo du bout de la tête de la culasse mobile et si possible le calibre actuelle.

J’ai aussi besoin de connaitre la longueur totale de l’arme, du canon, et la largeur de la grenadière.

Max.

 

3301 Complément.

Iden  3301 fusil Vetterli.

Voici ce qui était au départ un fusil Vetterli modèle 1869/1871, fabriqué en 1876 (d’après son matricule). Ce fusil a été fabriqué à 134.000 exemplaires, en ce compris 160 exemplaires de présérie mod 1869 et 1.198 exemplaires mod 1869. Nous sommes ici en présence de la variante d’environ de 1873.

                                    Modifications d’ordonnance du 12 juillet 1871 :

À partir de la culasse, le canon de ce fusil est devenu octogonal sur 75 mm au lieu de 65mm pour le modèle 1869 et ceci de façon à renforcer la clavette de maintien du fût. 

                                     Modifications d’ordonnance du 21 août 1870 :

Sur ce fusil : le levier d’arrêt de répétition, le fermoir du magasin ainsi que le couvre culasse sont supprimés, mais aussi tous leurs systèmes de fixation.

 

La capucine de ce fusil a vu sa largeur passer de 10 à 15mm afin de répartir la pression sur une plus grande surface.

 

La plaque de couche, la hausse, et l’embouchoir sont apparemment bien restés du modèle 69/71.

Le poinçon figurant sur le fût est celui d’acceptation de ce dernier ; ce poinçon doit aussi figurer sur la crosse. J’avais demandé une photo complète recto verso de la crosse, mais je ne l’ai pas reçue ! Cette dernière doit normalement posséder un poinçon d’acceptation identique à celui du fût et une broche de renfort en buis qui la traverse de part en part.

 

Ce fusil a été raccourci par l’avant d’environ de 300 mm ; de plus, il a été transformé en percussion centrale, ceci très certainement pour la chasse.

Il existe deux types de cartouche pour la chasse : la 10,4 x 38 R pour le modèle 69/71, et la 10,4 x 47 R pour le modèle 1870.

 

Je constate que le guidon n’est plus d’origine et qu’il a été fortement rehaussé, chose normale du fait du raccourcissement de l’arme.

 

Je constate aussi que la capucine a été modifiée en grenadière porte bretelle ; cela est aussi dû au raccourcissement du fût.

 

Je suis persuadé qu’on ne peut plus fixer la baïonnette à douille sur ce fusil.

 

J’avais aussi demandé une bonne photo de la tête de culasse côté percussion,  mais je ne l'ai pas reçue.

Je n’ai pas reçu non plus la dimension de la largeur de la grenadière qui doit se situer entre 10 à 15mm.

 

MAX et PHL

 

 

 

 

Identification 3306

 

Here is a Levaux six-shot revolver of unspecified caliber (probably 380), sold by T Page Wood to Bristol.

I see only a crowned G (?) as a punch, which could be the mark of a controller of the Liege Proof House (in use until 26 January 1877). But I don't see the ELG punch in an oval (unless it's on the barrel, where the gold wire is interrupted????).

The mention DD Levaux Patented appears on the weapon, but it may have been manufactured by someone else. Read the long notice published on the Littlegun website on this subject.

http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20l/a%20levaux%20gb.htm

The mention ACIER FONDU (FOUND STEEL) refers to the type of metal.

As for the mention on the barrel, it is in fact the house T. Page-Wood of Bristol, created in 1876. See the interesting notice below. Note that the Stockel does not mention it. . . .

I cannot explain the two numbers, 1863 and 4569. 1863 does not correspond to a date since Dieudonné Levaux's patent dates back to 1876. . .

GP

 

T Page-Wood established his business in 1876 at 29 Nicholas Street, Bristol. One report states that the address was 35 Nicholas Street.

In about 1885 he opened branches at 13 Market Place, Frome, Somerset, and at 1 Westgate, Cardiff, Glamorganshire.

In about 1890 the address of the main business in Bristol was given as 26 High Street, but it may be that the 26 Nicholas Street shop was retained. The Frome branch closed, the Cardiff branch moved to 21 Castle Street, and new branches were opened at 39-40 Walcot Street, Bath, and 19 High Street, Shepton Mallet, Somerset.

In 1900 the firm started buying guns from Thomas Wild and Rowland Watson, others followed from time to time.

In about 1905 all the branches appear to have closed and the only address of the business was 26 St Nicholas Street (street re-named?).

In 1907 the business was registered as a limited company, T Page-Wood Ltd.

T Page-Wood had promoted themselves as "The Gun Makers of the West", and they acted in a wholesale as well as a retail capacity. They had agents in Malta, Cyprus and Canada. They made a folding aperture sight for shotguns, an elliptical aim corrector (which was a metal half circle mounted over the barrels in front of the fore-end), and a fore-end elevator (an enlarged fore-end which was clipped over the existing fore-end to discourage low shooting.

In about 1920 the company moved to 28 St Nicholas Street.

In 1924 the firm patented a shotgun cartridge with a small over-shot wad in a cone shaped case, perhaps this was thought to ease loading without impairing pattern quality.

In 1942 the company's premises were bombed and by 1955 they were trading at Old Park Hill, Park Row. At about this date it is thought that the company was sold to Sheldon Bush & Patent Shot Co Ltd, but reportedly in 1964 it traded as T Page-Wood Ltd at 8 Pipe Lane, off Colston Lane, Bristol, they were not recorded after 1964.

The firm sold cartridges under the names "Anti-Recoil Cartridge" (post 1920), "Anti-Recoil Economic Cartridge" (post 1920), "Bristol", "Climax Cartridge", "Page-Wood D S", "Page-Wood's Shield Cartridge", "T Page-Wood Second Quality" (Nobel Glasgow 16 bore post 1919) "Wildfowler", "Park Row", "Double Crimp", "Imperial Crown" and "Special .410".

  

 

Identification 3308

Iden 3308 pinfire revolver DAL

Here is a relatively well-made pinfire revolver, of unspecified caliber (probably 7 or 9 mm), five or six shots, single and double action, open frame, octagonal barrel, lateral bush ejection rod.

The cylinder was tanned.

Looks like there's a gap on the barrel feed door.

We would have liked a picture of the small plate near the trigger: would that be a safety feature?

The initials DAL and Cie in Liège are very interesting because they allow us to date the relatively limited production period.

 

The markings

 

V and Y under crown: countermarks of controllers (in use between 1853 and 1877).

 

ELG in oval: acceptance between 1846 and 1893

 

3 B under plate: not identified

 

The initials DAL and Cie can almost certainly be attributed to the company Dresse-Ancion-Laloux et Cie, arms manufacturers rue Sur la Fontaine 47 in Liège, registered in the proofhouse between 1862 and 1866, as the "Qui est qui de l'armurerie liégeoise" (page 77) of Michel Druart and Guy Gadisseur (†) tells us.

 

GP with the help of the whole team.

  

 

Identification 3309

Here is a juxtaposed shotgun of Liège manufacture which has known better days. It is obviously not very young since it dates back to 1928.

 

The markings

 

ELG on star in crowned oval: acceptance since 1924.

 

0 kg973: barrels weight, since 1924.

 

g : annal letter of 1928 (Year of manufacture of your weapon).

 

lion on PV: smokeless powder test between 1898 and 1968

 

32-65 in omega lying: nominal size and length of the sleeve, since 1924

 

AD under star: countermark of the controller between 1877 and 1968

 

D crowned: Delcour barrel maker in Nessonvaux (Manufacturer of the barrels of your weapon)

 

I didn't see the inscription "épreuves officielles ......" (official events.......) on the pictures you sent me!

The manufacturer of this weapon has not been identified but it was not manufactured by the FN.

 

GP with the help of PHL

 

Identification 3312

Voici un beau fusil de chasse juxtaposé à platines. Il est curieux qu’il n’y ait pas de nom du fabricant,  sur la bande par exemple.

 

Les marquages

 

1 kg 025 : poids du canon, en usage depuis 1924

 

AE sous étoile : contremarque du contrôleur de 1877 à 1968

 

Lion sur PV : épreuve à la poudre sans fumée, en usage de 1898 à 1968

 

ELG sur étoile dans ovale couronné : acceptation, en usage depuis 1924

 

20-70 dans oméga allongé : calibre nominal et longueur de la douille, en usage depuis 1924

 

EL en lettres anglaises : épreuve provisoire de 1852 à nos jours.

 

k (si j’ai bien lu) : lettre annale pour 1932.

 

Andrews Toledo Steel : un fabricant d’acier établi à Sheffield. Voir sur le lien

http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20t%20w/a%20thonon%20fernand%20gb.htm

Sur la platine, on peut lire Grosjean Frères, sans doute le platineur.

Il se pourrait que le fusil ait été fabriqué par Fernand Thonon qui utilisait ce type d’acier. Voir sur le lien : http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20t%20w/a%20thonon%20famille%20fr.htm

 

GP avec l’aide de HPH et Alain

 

Identification 3313

 

This is a classic "garden" Flobert rifle with rimfire, 6 mm calibre and octagonal barrel; it is curious that the calibre does not appear on the left side barrel.

 

There is only one punch, ELG on star in an oval, the acceptance punch in use between 1846 and 1893.

 

There is also what seems to be a mark, (the rectangle with a snake), but it could not be identified.

 

There is also LL, which could be the hallmark of the Manufacture d'armes Lepage, rue des Augustins 26 in Liège, active under different names since - at least - 1842 to 1961.

 

GP

 

Identification 3315

Dear Sir,

 

Alan relayed your message to me.

 

Your revolver is a Spanish made copy of the Smith & Wesson Hand Ejector 2nd Model of 1902-1903.

It was manufactured by Trocaola Hermanos of Eibar (Spain), but other Eibar gunmakers such as Arizmendi or Orbea Hermanos also manufactured these copies,

along with copies of the Colt Military & Police Model of 1887.

These revolvers are true copies of the originals, and are of about the same quality.

During WW 1 - around 1915-1916 - the French and Commonwealth armies,

 that suffered a shortage of handguns due to the fact that their factories could not meet the huge demands, asked neutral Spain to supply those copies.

Since the French army used the St-Etienne 1892 Service Revolver, which chambered the 8 mm "Lebel" cartridge, they ordered the revolvers to be made in that caliber.

The British govt, however, could use the standard .38 caliber as well as the .455.

You should measure the caliber in the barrel (diameter between 2 grooves).

If the measure is 8 mm, it was made around 1916-1917 for the French army.

If it is 9 mm however, it was made for everyone who wanted to purchase it, except the British govt.

We know that, because according to the British law, all non-British made firearms had to be re-proofed in London or Birmingham and marked accordingly upon arrival.

Standard calibers for this model are S&W .32-20 and S&W .38.

The "French versions" in the 8 mm Lebel caliber were produced during WW 1 only.

 

Best regards,

 

Marcel

 

Identification 3316

Here is a beautiful percussion pistol in the Empire style, rifled barrel in Turkish damask (one of the many types of damask). 55 caliber, marked H. Gonzales New York under the barrel and Ch. Pirlot and Simonis in Antwerp on the lock.

These Messrs. Pirlot and Simonis are mentioned in an 1838 business directory as merchants on Hoboken Street. Ch. Pirlot is still mentioned as owner Courte rue de l'Hôpital in a 1877-1878 directory.

 

I do not know if there is a link between this Ch. Pirlot d'Anvers and the Pirlot Brothers active in Liège between 1836 and 1879.

H. Could Gonzales in New York be the manufacturer?

Or the importer?

There is in any case no punch of the proofhouse of Liège.

The initials SJB could not be identified.

GP

 

Identification 3317

 

Here is a revolver of Belgian manufacture copied on S&W, five shots in caliber 380. A very, very common practice.

It has been provided with a left hand security that does not exist on the "real" S&W.

 

The markings

 

1115 under the heel of the stock: probably a serial number

 

ELG on star in crowned oval: acceptance between 1893 and 1968

 

P under star: countermark of the controller between 1877 and 1968

 

R under crown: rifled barrel between 1894 and 1968

 

Under the plates are also the letters JD and a crowned D.

But it is reckless to attribute them: JD could be Jean Duchateau but I don't know the period of activity, so it's better to abstain.

 

GP

 

Identification 3318

 

This is a classic Mariette five-barrel pepperbox made more than likely by Auguste Francotte.

Everything has been said in the following section: http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20ma/a%20mariette%20guillaume%20gb.htm

There are only two punches

ELG on star in oval: acceptance between 1846 and 1893

 

Crowned AF: the initials of the house Auguste Francotte

 

http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20francotte/a%20francotte%20gb.htm

GP with the help of HPH

 

Identification 3324

 

Voici un revolver de type Kobold avec sûreté Mauser à gauche, poignée en bec de corbin. Le canon fait 12 cm de long.

Selon le vendeur, le barillet, long de 39 mm, accepte pas moins de trois munitions : le 11 mm Chamelot, le .44 Russian et le .450 Adams-Webley. Le .44 Russian doit « flotter » un peu…

Il existe déjà un Kobold sur le site littlegun.be, fabriqué par Neumann Frères qui a déposé la marque Kobold le 29 décembre 1893 :

http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20no/a%20neumann%20freres%20fr.htm

 

Il existe aussi la marque Cobold de HDH :

http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20h/a%20h%20d%20h%20fr.htm

 

La description du revolver Cobold correspond aussi parfaitement à l’exemplaire présenté, sans doute réalisé par un troisième fabricant…

 

Les marquages

 

R couronné : canon rayé, en usage depuis 1894

 

ELG sur étoile dans ovale couronné : acceptation en usage entre 1893 et 1968

 

Curieux poinçon T sur A sous étoile pas encore rencontré: contremarque de contrôleur en usage entre 1877 et 1968

 

Jeune cerf : peut-être une marque déposée ?

 

Lettres ou chiffres « asiatiques » : il s’agirait de la version chinoise du nom de l’entreprise Carlowitz & C° , une société allemande d’import-export installée à Shanghai à la fin du XIXe siècle.

 

GP

 

Identification 3337

Paire de fusils superposés à platines Jean Duchateau

Voici une belle paire de fusils superposés de fabrication liégeoises, gravés chacun par un graveur, Dieudonné Pirard et A. Rouffin.

 

Lettre grecque phi : lettre annale de 1961

 

G et T sous étoile : contremarques de contrôleurs de 1877 à 1968

 

Perron : inspection depuis 1853

 

1kg190 : poids du canon pouvant tirer des cartouches à poudre sans fumée depuis 1924

 

Lion sur PV : épreuve à la poudre vive de 1898 à 1968

 

ELG sur étoile dans ovale couronné : acceptation entre 1893 et 1968

 

12-70 dans oméga couché : calibre nominal et longueur de la douille depuis 1924

 

Poldi Nickel Steel JF ? : le type d’acier produit par la société tchèque Poldi située à Kladno utilisé par le canonnier Jean Falla, mais il y a un petit problème puisque Jean Falla a été actif jusqu’en 1953. Or, le fusil a été éprouvé en 1961…

 

JD couronné : quasi certainement les initiales de Jean Duchateau.

 

Jean Duchateau a d’abord travaillé seul entre 1923 et 1925. Il s’est associé avec Jules Thonon de 1925 à 1936. De 1936 à 1963, il a de nouveau travaillé seul et en 1964, la société est devenue Duchateau Jean fils.

Cette paire est donc une production de la fin de l’activité de Jean Duchateau qui s’était spécialisé dans les armes fines, par paire et même trio si l’on en croit un catalogue.

 

Le graveur Dieudonné Pirard a vécu de 1887 à 1965.

Voici sa photo : http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/graveurs/a%20pirard%20dieudonne.htm

Nous n’avons rien trouvé sur A. Rouffin. On trouve aussi son nom sur une autre arme présentée dans le lien suivant

http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20den/a%20dumoulin%20francois%20et%20cie%20gb.htm

GP

 

Identification 3341

Voici un fusil de chasse « léger » (calibre 28) à chiens extérieurs, platines arrière, clé d’ouverture entre les chiens, crosse semi-pistolet.

Les canons sont en Acier Cockerill.

Les marquages :

 

Lion sur PV : épreuve à la poudre sans fumée de 1898 à 1968

 

ELG sur étoile dans ovale couronné : acceptation entre 1893 et 1968

 

Perron : inspection depuis 1853

 

28-55 ( ?) dans oméga couché : calibre nominal et longueur de la douille

 

1 kg 181 : poids du canon de 1924 à nos jours

 

Z et B sous étoile : contremarques de contrôleurs entre 1877 et 1968

 

EL : épreuve provisoire depuis 1852

 

CHOKE 13.9

 

JB (?) : sans doute le fabricant de canons, non identifié

 

v ( ?) : lettre annale pour 1943 ?

 

Cruzeiro H.S. & C : peut-être le revendeur de cette ville près de Sao Paulo au Brésil ?

 

GP

 

 

Identification 3342

 

Monsieur,

 

Merci de votre intérêt pour notre site et de votre question.

Votre revolver est un modèle 1889 converti au mécanisme du modèle 1895 comme l'indiquent les alvéoles

de blocage sur le pourtour du barillet, lesquelle n'apparaissaient pas sur le modèle initial.

Il y a peu à dire de ce revolver, qui n'a pas été produit longtemps (selon James Serven seulement de 1889 à 1892, selon le Blue Book et le Flayderman avec encore quelques exemplaires produits jusqu'en 1894).

Production totale environ 31.000 exemplaires, dont les 5.000 premiers ont été acquis par l'US Navy. une arme

assez rare donc. Longueurs de canons disponibles: 3", 4 1/2" et 6"Tous les exemplaires vendus à L'US Navy sont en calibre .38 Long Colt

et bleus avec crosses en bois; les exemplaires destinés au marché civil sont disponibles en calibres .38 ou .41 et ont des crosses en bakélite avec le logo Colt dans

un ovale, finition bleue ou nickel. Le vôtre est donc un exemplaire civil. Le barillet tourne dans le sens contraire aux

aiguilles d'une montre (vers la gauche donc), une exigence militaire stupide et incompréhensible qui a provoqué tant chez Colt

que chez Smith & Wesson une vague de colère à cause des frais provoqués par ce changement inutile.

 

Meilleures salutations

 

Marcel.

 

Monsieur Payelle,
Encore une petite remarque à propos de votre revolver Colt Navy 1895:
Comme dit précédemment, les exemplaires livrés à l'US Army ou à l'US Navy sont normalement tous équipés de
plaquettes de crosse en bois, les plaquettes de bakélite étant réservées aux armes destinées au marché civil.
Je me suis un peu mal exprimé en disant que le vôtre est un exemplaire civil à cause de ses plaquettes de crosse;
en fait, les marquages militaires USN sont bel et bien les marquages régimentaires officiels, et attestent que cette
arme a donc bien servi dans la marine.
Il faut noter que les "crosses en bois"ne sont pas non plus une règle absolue, surtout vers l'époque de la 1ère Guerre
Mondiale, pendant laquelle les fabricants américains ont dû faire appel à leurs réserves et ont donc livré à l'armée - et
aux alliés européens - tout ce qu'ils avaient sous la main. J'ai moi-même un New Service 1909 civil, fabriqué en 1916
en calibre .455, qui a fait deux tours en Europe dans des mains canadiennes pour qui ce calibre est réglementaire
alors qu'aux USA il n'est livré qu'au marché civil.
Le n° de série de votre revolver pourrait nous aider plus avant à ce sujet en nous permettant de déterminer l'année de production.
Meilleures salutations
Marcel.

 

Identification 3347

 

Bonjour,

 

Votre pistolet Over/Under n'est évidemment PAS un Remington. Ce n'est pas non plus une réplique licenciée genre Uberti ou Pietta, mais une

copie illégale. Origine évidemment inconnue.

 

Le véritable Over/Under Remington a été produit de 1866 à 1935 en 4 variations. Ces variations ne concernent que les marquages

(placés entre les canons, puis sur deux lignes sur le pan supérieur du canon, puis sur une ligne…) et pour les 2.000 premiers exemplaires

fabriqués de 1866 à 1867, l'absence d'éjecteur. Celui-ci est apparu sur les 100 derniers ex de cette série.

Chaque variation est numérotée de 1 à...

Le calibre du pistolet original est TOUJOURS le .41 Xtra Short annulaire. Seules les copies modernes d'autres fabricants existent en .22 ou en .32 court,

mais ne portent bien entendu pas le nom de Remington.

Plus personne ne fabrique la 41 Xtra Short annulaire, et je serais bien en peine de vous dire où trouver une .45 Xtra Short...

 

Ce n'est pas le modèle qui en fait une copie illégale - le brevet original a expiré il y a belle lurette - mais le fait que cette arme porte le nom de Remington

alors qu'elle ne provient pas de ce fabricant. C'est ce qu'on appelle du plagiat, et c'est interdit et sévèrement réprimé sur environ toutes les planètes

de la galaxie. Il n'est donc pas étonnant qu'elle ne porte aucune marque de fabrique ni de poinçon d'épreuve permettant de retracer son origine.

 

L'étoile dans un cercle sur le côté droit du bâti évoque une partie de marque d'épreuve italienne, mais ce n'est qu'une fantaisie destinée également à

tromper le pigeon, d'autant que Remington n'est pas italien. Les autres petites marques autour sont des marques de petits coups, volontaires ou non...

 

Poudre noire ou vive ? Aucune idée. Classement en France ? Idem.

 

Valeur de collection ? Nulle, sauf si on veut garder cette pièce dans une collection de Remington comme exemple de copie sauvage. Mais alors il faut

également se procurer des copies sauvages de Rolling Blocks, et tant qu'on y est celles faites sous licence officielle, telles les pistolets de gendarmerie

Nagant mod 1877...

 

Désolé.

Meilleures salutations

 

Marcel

  

 

Identification 3348

Here is a shotgun juxtaposed with external dogs and two-key locking key also called Lefaucheux of very common manufacture.

The markings

 

Perron: inspection since 1853

 

ELG on star in oval: acceptance between 1846 and 1893

 

Y and J under crown: countermarks of controllers between 1853 and 1877

 

17. 0: could be the diameter (in millimetres) but this does not correspond to a known size since the 18 is 16. 5 mm and the 16 17. 4 mm. In addition, it would normally require a comma, not a period. It can hardly be a choke 17. 0 since this marking is after 1898: out of the blue, the rifle dates anyway from before 1893. So mystery. . . .

 

EL: provisional test from 1852 to the present day.

 

GP

 

 

Identification 3359

 

Here is a classic shotgun juxtaposed Anson & Deeley system of Liège manufacture.

English stock, pushrod forearm.

The markings :

ELG on star in crowned oval: acceptance between 1893 and 1968

Perron: inspection since 1853

Lion on PV: Smokeless powder test in use between 1898 and 1968

V under star: countermark of a controller between 1877 and 1968

EL: provisional test in use since 1852.

12-70 in omega: nominal size and length of the cartridge sleeve in use since 1924.

1kg402 : weight of the barrel capable of firing smokeless powders in use since 1924.

Choke 18. 3: barrel choked between 1924 and 1968

Greek letter zeta: annual letter of 1952.

JF: either Janssen Frères or Ateliers Jean Falla.

As this mark is on the barrels, it would rather be the mark of Jean Falla who was a barrel maker!

GP

 

Identification 3361

 

Indeed Mle 1777 basic rifle, probably due to the absence of Marking of the lock (civil Mle Year IX) it could be a "Revolutionary" assembly (under reserve) or a model reserved for export which would have undergone the modification "Year IX" of the lock (civil), or a weapon of "Treaty".

Photo below of an unmodified 1777.

Those of the revolution have a "G" stamp surmounted by a Phrygian cap, controller of the Manufacture de PARIS - Citizen "Gérrat".

Downgraded to No. 1 in 1833.

 

 

 

The 1777 models were mainly made in St Charleville (Nozon in the Meuze Valley), Maubeuge & St Étienne.

Current village of "Nouzonville" in the Pointe Ardennaise for "NOZON".

Manufacturing prior to Year II of the Revolution. . . . it was modified after Year IX (lock)

@lain

 

Identification 3370

Here a traditional shotgun juxtaposed of type Anson & Deeley, developed in 1875, almost centenary. It comes out from research in “Who's Who arms manufacture of Liège” and in volume 3 of the “Arms manufacturers of Liege” in catalogs of (deceased) Guy Gadisseur, which the mark “Sirène Hammerless Arms comp.” was deposited in Liege, on May 20th, 1912 by Ziegler Adolf Robert, street Sœurs of Hasque, (which manufactured shotguns and traded with Poland. The mark “Syrena Hless Arms Co” could be the translation for the sale in Poland of its weapons of hunting.

However, one does not find worthless trace of this Ziegler in the directories. One wonders consequently if it had really a factory, or if it were active in import/export.

Markings

16 on C in rhombus: indication of the gauge between 1898 and 1924.

PV surmounted of a stylized lion: test with the smoke-free powder between 1898 and 1968.

UA under star: countermark of a controller between 1877 and 1968.

Peron: inspection since 1853.

D=70 over 19.0: length of the room in mm and diameter in mm after the optional test with the smoke-free powder between 1892 and 1924.

P under star: countermark of a controller between 1877 and 1968.

1kg336: weight of the barrel.

C: undoubtedly the yearly letter for 1924.

The marked initials of a red arrow are that of the gunner Joseph Cap.

 

GP with the essential assistance of PHL and GG †

 

Identification 3374

Voici un pistolet semi-automatique en calibre 6,35 de fabrication espagnole et pourvu de poinçons liégeois.

Il provient des usines de Martin A. Bascaran à Eibar. Il est curieux de relever que la marque Thunder a été déposée en Espagne par un autre Espagnol, Alberdi, Telleria y Cia.

Comme dit plus haut, on repère sur la culasse quelques poinçons liégeois :

Lion sur PV : épreuve à la poudre sans fumée entre 1898 et 1968

 

R couronné : canon rayé en usage de 1894 à 1968

 

C sous étoile : contremarque d’un contrôleur entre 1877 et 1968

 

Perron : inspection depuis 1853

 

ELG sur étoile dans ovale couronné : acceptation entre 1893 et 1968.

 

Il est curieux de constater que la lettre L dans une grenade indiquant l’origine étrangère d’une arme présentée au Banc d’Epreuves de Liège, en usage depuis 1924, ne figure pas parmi les poinçons. Peut-être que l’arme a été passée au BE avant cette date. Ou qu’elle a été expédiée « en blanc » depuis l’Espagne, éprouvée et puis réexportée…

Dans le livre de Iann Hogg et John Weeks « Pistols of the World », on peut lire que le « Thunder » est en fait une version améliorée du pistolet « Martian » du même Martin A Bascaran de Eibar, lancé au début de la 1GM.

Le « Thunder » a été vendu jusqu’à la fin des années 1920.

 

GP avec l’aide de MD

 

Identification 3380

 

Here is a classic Anson & Deeley hunting rifle of Liège manufacture in 16 gauge, well marked Jean Riga-Stassart, arms manufacturer patented in Liege. English stick.

The markings

 

C: Year letter of 1924.

 

P under star: countermark of a controller since 1877.

 

Lion on PV: Smokeless powder test since 1898.

 

Peron: inspection since 1853.

 

16 C in vertical diamond: size (between 1898 and 1924).

 

ELG on star in crowned oval: acceptance between 1893 and 1968.

 

P 1 K170 : weight of the barrel capable of firing smokeless powders (since 1924).

 

D=65 on 18. 9: length of the chamber in mm and diameter in mm after the provisional test.

 

EL: provisional test since 1852.

 

CHOKE 16. 9 : choked barrels caliber at 22 cm from the breech.

 

JM in oval: it could be the initials of the gunner Joseph Ch. Monisse.

 

Martin Siemens Steel: type of steel produced according to the Martin-Siemens system (see Wikipedia: https://fr. wikipedia. org/wiki/Procédé_Martin-Siemens).

 

Jean Riga-Stassart, patented arms manufacturer, 288 rue Vivegnis in Liege, was registered with the Liege proofhouse from 1908 to 1936. He filed a Belgian patent for a bolt lock for tilting barrel rifles. The activities were taken over by Léon Stassart in 1938.

He also worked in export since we found his name on an advertisement by a Warsaw gunsmith in a 1928 Polish hunting magazine (on the second page) http://trofeamysliwskie. pl/admin/upload/File/LP/1928-42. pdf

 

GP

 

Identification 3381

 

Here is a revolver for six pinfire cartridges (probably in 9 mm) marked Meyers Bté. Foldable trigger. Ejector rod sliding along the barrel.

See also on the website littlegun.

 

http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20m/a%20meyers%20gb.htm

 

http://www.littlegun.be/ma_collection/belgique/be%20klmno/a%20be%20meyers%208mm%20gb.htm

 

http://www.littlegun.be/ma_collection/belgique/be%20klmno/a%20be%20meyers%20gb.htm

 

http://www.littlegun.be/ma_collection/belgique/be%20klmno/a%20be%20meyers%2012mm%20gb.htm

 

http://www.littlegun.be/ma_collection/belgique/be%20klmno/a%20be%20meyers%20poivriere%20gb.htm

 

The only photographed and identifiable marking is the ELG on a star in an oval, that is, the one of acceptance between 1846 and 1893.

Guillaume-Joseph Meyers, a weapons manufacturer in Liege, filed seven patents between 1866 and 1879. Unfortunately, we do not have the one that concerns this revolver.

It should also be noted that Meyers sold 7 mm rimfire revolvers to the police of the canton of Zurich!

GP with the help of HPH

 

 

Identification 3386

This is a five-shot hammerless revolver in 7. 65 mm calibre from the manufacturer-importer Edgard Grimard.

Bronzed barrel and cylinder. Chrome-plated carcass.

The ejector rod is located in the axis of the cylinder.

The markings

Lion on PV : live powder test between 1898 and 1968

S under star: countermark of a controller between 1877 and 1968

R crowned: rifled bore between 1894 and 1968

ELG on star in a crowned oval: acceptance between 1893 and 1968

Initials ELG in a diamond shape: the trademark (unregistered) of Edgard Grimard.

ING 1342: not identified.

The company Edgard Grimard has been registered with the Liège Proofhouse since 1908.

At the time, it was located rue Chéri 31 in Liège.

In 1930, she took over the workshops and equipment of the former Nagant company. She then moved her workshops to the Quai Roi Albert in Bressoux.

The company still exists in Ans-Alleur.

GP with the help of PHL

 

In 1906: creation of the company. I don't have the address !

Around 1910: César Franck street, 26

Around 1914: rue Edouard Wacken, 32, Liège

Circa 1924: rue Louvrex,90, Liège

In 1930: takeover of the Nagant factory (cf. Guy in the Who's Who belgian manufacturers) but I can't find a trace of it in my papers.

Circa 1937: rue Louvrex,90, Liège: central office

Quai du Roi Albert, 106, Bressoux: factory

Rue Chéri, 31: stores and depot

Around 1945: rue Louvrex,90, Liège: offices and warehouse

Quai du Roi Albert, 106, Bressoux: factory

Around 1960: Quai du Roi Albert, 102 to 108, Bressoux: factory

Around 1967: rue Chéri, 31, Liège

In 1976: Avenue de l'Energie, 9, Industrial Park, Alleur

In 1984: rue Chéri, 31, Liège

 

I'm finding traces of the trademark from 1924. The dates are approximate because I could not formally establish the dates of change, not having the directories of each year!

Obviously, the address rue Chéri, 31 remained current in parallel with that of Alleur but until what date?

For the "partial" history see :

https://www.edgardgrimard.com/

 

 

Identification 3393

 

Here is a small calibre shotgun with central percussion, external hammers, key of opening between the hammers, semi-pistol butt, frustrated engravings, of cheap Liège manufacture intended for export, in this case to Brazil given the marking Ordem & Progresso on the band between the barrels.

The markings

 

Peron: inspection since 1853.

 

Lion on PV: test with smokeless powder between 1898 and 1968.

 

Z under star: countermark of a controller since 1877.

 

EL: provisional test since 1852.

 

1kg192 : weight of the barrel that can fire smoke-free powders since 1924.

 

13,8 and 13,9: calibre in mm since 1889 (according to the sources so I have).

 

C or G under star: countermark of a controller since 1877 (the presence of two countermarks surprises us...).

 

28-65 in omega lying: nominal size and length of the sleeve since 1924.

 

Cockerill Steel: the type of steel used for barrels.

 

We do not see any manufacturer's or gunner's marks, which is not surprising given the low production cost of such a rifle.

"Ordem & Progresso"; appears on the Brazilian flag. See on this subject Auguste Comte and positivism.

 

GP with the help of HPH.

 

Identification 3394

 

This is a "classic" Anson and Deeley system shotgun with English stock, probably the beginning of the FN range. He is almost a hundred years old and we can see that he "have many lived".

A very similar rifle has already been identified:

http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/fn/a%20fn%20fusil%20chasse%20gb.htm

The markings

Crowned ELG: acceptance between 1893 and 1968

Lion on PV: test with smokeless powder between 1898 and 1968

d: annual letter for 1925

S under star: countermark of a controller between 1877 and 1968

16-65 in elongated omega: caliber and length of the casing since 1924

Underneath the longline are probably the weight of the guns and any chokes.

GP with the help of PHL

 

Identification 3395

 

Here is a nice drilling marked JB DEFOSSÉ in Liege. External hammers, nice stick "pistol". Barrels are relatively short, quasi indeed to try to compensate for the weight of the third striped barrel and to make sure so as the weapon remains "nice" to hit.

Marking

12 on C in vertical rhomb: calibre between 1898 and 1924

Peron: examination since 1853

ELG on star in oval crowned: acceptance between 1893 and 1968

EL: interim test since 1852

17. 4 and 18. 2: chokés cannons

AD under star: pass of the inspector from 1877 till 1968

The happy owner signalled us that the calibre of the striped cannon is 8x58 R Sauer there.

Concerning Defossé, here is what the members of the team found:

In the directory of 1889 appear among the armourers:

Defossé – St-Gilles, 222 in Liege

Defossé – Vennes, 317 in Liege

They also found:

1897: J. Defossé, armourer, living in Street Wazon, in 22 in Liege

1905: J. -B. Defossé, armourer, living in Street Wazon, in 22 in Liege

1908: J. Defossé, producer of weapon, street Wazon, 22 in Liege

1910: more trace of aforementioned Defossé at address above mention.

The according to «Whom is who of the armory liégeoise», JB DEFOSSEZ was registered in the Bench of tests of Liege from 1904 till 1908: since then, is there is an error the in «Whom is who», is there was an error in the Bench of tests (it would not be the first time) when they Defossé and Defossez were merged, that is the engraver made a mistake it would not be either the first time. And they see badly not selling such a nice gun for such a small "error";!

GP with HPH, PHL and MD

 

 

Identification 3396

 

Voici un revolver à 6 coups, cartouches à broche, sans doute du 7 mm. Il a été fabriqué par Bonhomme, qui a apposé son nom sur la portière de chargement. On voit aussi les initiales BD sur le pan droit du canon. La baguette d’éjection a fait l’objet d’un brevet déposé par Bonhomme et David.

Les marquages

ELG sur étoile dans ovale : acceptation entre 1846 et 1893

K sous étoile : contremarque d’un contrôleur entre 1877 et 1968.

Guillaume Bonhomme et Mathieu David ont déposé le brevet 040843 le 13 novembre 1876 qui figure ci-dessous. Ils ont ensuite déposé un brevet de perfectionnement 041286 le 15 janvier 1877 mais il ne nous concerne pas.

Guillaume Bonhomme (Voie de Liège 11 à Herstal) a aussi déposé d’autres brevets entre 1870 et 1878.

Mathieu David (fils) était aussi armurier à Herstal, rue Hayeneux 76.

GP avec l’aide de HPH

Brevets : 

028277 – 30/11/1870  Système de clef de fermeture à ressort avec tire-cartouches mobile applicable aux revolvers basculants

029187 – 11/08/1871  Nouveau système de portière de sûreté applicable aux revolvers 

033009 – 29/07/1873  Système de pistolet revolver avec fermeture de sûreté

040843 – 13/11/1876  Modification applicable aux revolvers  (avec DAVID Mathieu)

041286 – 15/01/1877  Baguette à charnière  (brvt ppal n° 040843 du 13/11/1876)  (avec DAVID Mathieu) 

045211 – 20/05/1878  Système de revolver basculant.

 

Identification 3403

 

Voici un bien « drôle de pistolet », qu’on peut attribuer au génie d’A. Barbault, armurier à Paris, place de la République, 16, vers 1909. Il eut été encore plus « drôle » si ce « pistolet de précision » avait été équipé du système d’équilibre à balancier qui fit l’objet d’un dépôt de brevet (216132) en Belgique par le sieur Barbault, via le sieur Stocq de Bruxelles, le 10 mai 1909, ce qui n’est malheureusement pas le cas, comme on le verra plus loin.

Les marquages

FL 22 L : le calibre Flobert 22 Long

ELG sur étoile dans ovale couronné : acceptation entre 1893 et 1968

A sous étoile : contremarque d’un contrôleur entre 1877 et 1968

Perron : inspection depuis 1863

AB dans un dessin de poisson : les initiales d’A. Barbault dans ce qui est être supposé comme étant un barbeau (un poisson de rivière qui peut atteindre un mètre de long).

Il appert du brevet 216132 ci-joint et des photos que le système de balancier qui doit se trouver dans la poignée n’existe pas sur l’exemplaire présenté. Il pourrait avoir été remplacé par une masselotte avec guidon réglable beaucoup plus simple.

A. Barbaut est inconnu du Stöckel.

Un Barbault figure dans le Jarlier mais comme armurier à Nogent-Le-Rotrou (Eure-et-Loir) en 1893-1894.

On se pose aussi la question du numéro 1896 suivi des lettres AB. Ce chiffre de production – s’il en est un - semble fort élevé… mais on sait que les chiffres de production sont régulièrement fantaisistes (ou du moins qu’ils ne commencent pas souvent au n° 1…).

On se demande aussi quel armurier liégeois a produit ce pistolet.

GP avec l’aide indispensable de MAX.