Voila les réponses aux demandes d'identifications. Elles sont placées dans l'ordre de date de demande sans tenir compte de la langue.
Here are the responces about asking of identifications. They are placed in the order of date of request without holding account of the language.
Identification 3000
It is
about a copy of Liège of rifle with English percussion 1878 TOWER with one shot
also carrying the English royal crown.
This
weapon carries the lawful punches of the proofhouse of Liege, attesting of its
Belgian origin.
These
punches are identified as follows:
ELG* in
a vertical oval:
it is the mark of final acceptance, of use of 1846 to 1893.
D*: countermark of the controller, of use of 1877 to 1968.
Peron:
inspection, of use of 1853 to our days.
EL in
English letters:
provisional test, of use of 1852 to our days.
Does the
weapon also carry a mysterious mark N 3 13?? Couldn't I identify it?
GG
Identification 3001
It is about a revolver called “to rocker” or “top
break” of type S&W. The lock is with simple and double action. The cylinder is
smooth and comprises 6 rooms (gauges not communicated?). The opening starts by a
button placed on the console right side behind the barrel. The rifled bore is
with 8 sides with front sight in half-moon.
The grips consists of two plates in walnut (?)
squared connected by a transverse screw and two rivet washers. It ends in a ring
and a screw-pivot. The curved trigger is protected by an oval trigger guard.
The
weapon carries the lawful punches of the proofhouse of LIEGE, namely:
ELG* in
a vertical
oval: final acceptance, of use of 1846 to 1893.
S
spangled:
countermark of the controller, post 1877.
Lastly,
the weapon also carries the following marks:
P.
behind the cylinder:
I am unaware of the significance of it, perhaps acts it of a mark of
subcontractor.
RDA:
this mark can-being incomplete and thus difficult to identify. Idem for the
resembling drawing perhaps representing a fish?
The weapon is of “type "Jean
WARNANT" of HOGNEE-CHERATTE (Province of
Liège) which carried out many models of revolvers top break. Its mark does not
appear however on the present weapon. Perhaps' it is about a very frequent copy
at the time and not signed of course!!
GG
Identification 3002
Il s’agit d’un fusil à percussion mono-coup à brisure. Le canon,
vraisemblablement lisse, est à 8 pans et est fixé par deux "brassadelles". Il
porte les organes de visée habituels comme le guidon inséré par tenon-mortaise
et le cran de mire à plusieurs positions. Le canon est fixé dans la batterie par
une seule vis et un crochet. Le chien est placé sur le flanc arrière droit. Ce
qui me semble être une sûreté est placée à côté du chien, elle pénètre par
glissement dans le corps de la platine pour venir bloquer l’ouverture (brisure)
du canon ? La détente sous pontet ovale est courbe. La crosse en noyer est
façonnée à l’anglaise. Le tenon fixe à l’extrémité du canon devrait servir à la
fixation d’une baïonnette ?
Cette arme présente divers poinçons du banc d’épreuves de Liège, ce qui nous
indique son origine liégeoise. Soit les poinçons suivants :
N couronné :
contremarque du contrôleur, en usage de 1846 à 1893.
EL en lettres anglaises :
épreuve provisoire, en usage de 1852 à 1893.
MB – J.D – GD :
il s’agit vraisemblablement de marques de sous-traitants non identifiés ayant
participé à la fabrication de l’arme.
L’arme porte également les marques :
1241 :
numérotation de l’arme.
CM dans un ovale couché :
il s’agit très vraisemblablement du marquage du fabricant. Il s’agit peut-être
d’une marque appartenant à Charles Masquelier, fabricant d’armes à Liège rue de
la Cathédrale, 94 (1911/1925) bien que je pense, au vu des poinçons, que ces
dates sont trop tardives.
Lettre Q (P inversé) :
origine ignorée.
GG
Identification 3006
It is about a revolver of the type R.I.C. (Royal Irish Constabulary) Bulldog or
Puppy following its size (nonvisible on the photographs). The cylinder is with
ellipses. The trigger is folding under the frame (without trigger guard!) the
rod with head of nipple is articulated. The barrel is with 8 sides with
semicircular front sight. The plates of grips are invisible.
The weapon carries the lawful punches of the proofhouse of Liege, that is to
say:
ELG* in a crowned oval: final acceptance, of use of 1893 to 1968.
R crowned: rifled bore, of use of 1894 to 1968.
AL*: countermark of the controller, of use of 1877 to 1968.
The weapon carries also various marks is:
C crowned: it acts with my opinion of marking of the manufacturer of cylinder of
Herstal.
320A: gauge.
O - P - WB - 78: markings of workshops or subcontractors.
5394: number of the weapon.
F.F. in an oval lying: I think that it is the mark of the manufacturer but this one is not indexed in my documentation.
Several names could correspond of which the most probable can-being. (?)
FASTRE-FRAIKIN, Francois, gunmaker with Housse (Province of Liège) author of 4
patents of 1889 to 1902.
GG
Identification 3010
It is
about a shotgun to central percussion, the hammers are external and the key of
opening “Top Lever”. Locks are of type “behind”. The triggers double are
protected by an oval trigger guard. The steel barrels are juxtaposed with
decorated central band. The weapon is equipped with a forearm not very visible
on the photograph?
The
weapon carries the lawful punches of the proofhouse of Liege, namely:
ELG* in
a crowned oval:
final acceptance, of use of 1873 to 1968.
E12-65
in an omega:
gauge nominal and length of casing, of use of 1924 to our days.
U and Q*:
countermarks of the controllers, of use of 1877 to 1968.
PV
surmounted of a stylized lion:
test with the smoke-free powder, of use of 1898 to 1968.
EL in
English letters:
provisional test, of use of 1852 to our days.
18.0:
gauge in mm. In use from 1889 at our days.
Letter
"f" into tiny:
yearly letter of 1927. Date of manufacture of your weapon.
1Kg 636:
weight of the barrel which can draw from the smoke-free powders (smooth weapons)
except for the gram. In use of 1924 to our days.
Perron:
inspection, of use of 1853 to our days.
The
weapon also carries the following marks:
ABV in
triangle:
who could be the unknown mark of a manufacturer of barrels of rifles of the
valley of Vesdre (between Liege and Verviers).
9290 and
37:
classifications of the weapon.
D
crowned:
mark of DELCOUR-DUPONT Jean, manufacturer of barrels of rifles with
FRAIPONT-NESSONVAUX (Province of Liège).
The
weapon does not carry the mark of the “manufacturer” itself. That was a
relatively current practice at the time.
GG
Identification 3018
Although the photographs are catastrophic here our conclusions:
It is thus about a shotgun to central percussion, with external hammers and
unrifled bores "in table". The opening is practiced using a key known as “Top
Lever” placed on the top of locks, those are of type “ahead”. The weapon
comprises a double trigger under oval trigger guard. The stick is said “to
English” out of wood of walnut!
With regard to the punches, they are of origin of Liège, i.e. the profhouse of
this city:
ELG* in a crowned oval: final acceptance, of use of 1893 to 1968.
Peron: inspection, of use of 1853 to our days.
EL in English letters: provisional test, of use of 1852 to our days.
T*: countermark of the controller, of use of 1877 to 1968.
28-60 (read so well) in an omega: gauge nominal and length
of the casing, of use of June 30th, 1924 at our days.
Choke 14.0: chokes barrels, gauged to 22 cm of the breech. In use
from June 30th, 1924 to February 26th, 1968.
The weapon also carries the following marks:
TROXADO DAMASCO: twisted Damas, although that is not visible on the
photographs (wear?).
LC (read so well?) on the barrels: marks of the manufacturer
of barrels??
5314: number of the weapon.
The weapon most probably intended for export does not carry any mark of
manufacturer as that was often the case to avoid customs taxations.
GG
One cannot give exact date but the punches of the proofhouse gives a fork of
1924 to 1968.
Identification 3020
Voici ce que dit le DER NEUE STÖCKEL de ces artisans.
Bonsoir
Alain
Il FRAPPE
AVANT QUE LA FLAMME NE BRILLE, suivant le collier de la Toison d'or le symbole
est un "fusil" c'est-à-dire en vieux français un briquet, une pièce de fer qui,
battue contre un silex permettait de créer le feu. Naturellement le mot fusil
s'est ensuite adapté pour devenir une arme. Il est naturel qu'un armurier sans
doute féru d'histoire s'empare de ce symbole.
Au sens
étymologique cela veut dire que le chevalier ne frappe que si on le provoque. Il
portera le coup dès la moindre provocation avant qu'elle devienne brillante.
Cela s'applique à tout blasphème ou contre l'honneur chevaleresque.
Pour une
arme à feu cela se traduit par un coup instantané...
Amitiés
Daniel
......Pour l'aspect historique de la devise de la toison d'or
Elle-même
se compose d'une belle toison dorée, que l'on retrouve aux cous du Bon et du
Téméraire sur tous leurs portraits, mais aussi de briquets et de pierres
illustrant la devise de l'ordre : Ante Ferit Quam Flamma Micet (Il frappe avant
que la flamme ne brille), et dans lesquels on trouve deux B entrecroisés,
montrant la souveraineté du duc sur les deux Bourgogne (le duché et le comté,
aujourd'hui Franche-Comté, voilà qui devrait achever de convaincre nos camarades
franc-comtois de rejoindre nos rangs).
Hormis le latin il faut comprendre l'italien ancien -
je précise "fugile soit silex" d’où le nom du "Fusil" actuellement
on parle de Briquet à pierre ( silex ) il frappe avant que jaillisse la flamme
ou la lumière
Comme dirait un Bourguignons Téméraire ....
(Les Françoys n'ont guère le sang froy").
ci dessous des briquets anciens
Briquet
à battre le silex ou "Fusil"
Photos
3 et 4 des illustrations de "Briquet" retrouvés par fouille.
Photo 8 : (En vieux français)
L'ont
vois superbement bien les "Briquets Bourguignon" entrelacés
avec les flammes du choc du Silex (Fusil)
Identification 3023
They are
a pair of pistols known as “Scottish” with percussion. The system with box is
equipped with a central hammer with percussion. The grips is in walnut of good
quality, it ends in a metal cap equipped with a starter receptacle with lid in
the shape of shell St Jacques. A fine floral engraving decorates the box.
The
weapon carries only one punch of the bench of tests of Liege, namely:
ELG* in
a vertical oval:
final acceptance, of use of 1846 to 1893.
The
weapon also carries a mark (of the manufacturer?) GM not identified as such but
which could perhaps correspond to the one of the arms manufacturers following
inhabitants of Liège:
MARIETTE
Guillaume (1840/1875)
author of 22 Belgian patents.
MERCENIER G.
Blegny, author of 2 patents of 1862 to 1864.
MORDANT
G. of Liege (1850/1876)
author of 3 patents.
GG
Note
webmaster:
It is
indeed very rare that a weapon of this kind has a system of aiming.
In
theory this kind of weapon is rather made to draw at very short distance, almost
with the contact!!
Identification 3027
It is
about a small revolver with annular percussion said “Vélo-dog”. The calibre is
of 6 mm. The short barrel is with 8 sides with front sight in half-moon. I am
unaware of if it is striped because not announced! The hammer is with ball. The
cylinder with 5 blows is long to accept the long cartouche vélo-dog. The rod is
articulated. The trigger swell without trigger guard is folded up in the
carcass. Both grips are out of black wood (ebony or false ebony?) and are fixed
using a central screw.
The
weapon carries the lawful punches of the proofhouse of Liege, namely:
ELG* in
an oval crowned:
final acceptance, of use of 1893 to 1968.
AH*:
countermark of the controller, of use of 1877 to 1968.
PV
surmounted of a stylized lion:
test with the smoke-free powder, of use of 1898 to 1968.
The
weapon also carries the following marks:
L
crowned:
could it belong to a manufacturer of barrels (Herstal) not identified?
6 or 9
following the position of the barrel:
number of the weapon.
The
amount of stick carries several marks of which some are illegible, that is to
say:
16: classification of unknown origin (workshop?)
MR.: marks of an unknown subcontractor?
GG
Identification 3031
Il s’agit d’une
carabine à un coup de type WARNANT de calibre 9 mm. Le canon est à 8 pans et le
pontet à volutes. Le système de percussion est de type WARNANT bien connu. La
crosse à l’anglaise semble être en bois de fruitier.
L’arme porte les
poinçons réglementaires du banc d’épreuves de Liège, à savoir :
ELG* dans un ovale
couronné : acceptation définitive post 1893.
BB* : contremarque
de l’inspection post 1877.
Perron : inspection
post 1853.
FL 9mC : calibre
annoncé.
8,4 : calibre réel ?
1913 : année de
fabrication.
L’arme porte
également les marques suivantes :
RW :
marque du fabricant liégeois
WARNANT René,
inscrit au banc d’épreuves liégeois de 1912 à 1956. Il est l’auteur de 4 brevets
d’invention. En 1934, il reprend l’activité de WARNANT Emile.
AD
JANSEN ARMURIER BRUXELLES
(gravé sur la crosse) : il s’agit du revendeur bruxellois bien connu (voir le
site).
GG
Identification 3032
Il s’agit d’un fusil à verrou à un coup et à percussion centrale. La crosse en
bois de noyer est façonnée à l’anglaise. Le canon d’acier est rond. Cette arme
de fabrication liégeoise n’est pas clairement identifiée. Elle porte néanmoins
les poinçons du banc d’épreuves liégeois, à savoir :
ELG* dans un ovale couronné : acceptation définitive, en usage de 1893 à 1968.
Perron : inspection post 1853.
AE* : contremarque du contrôleur, en usage de 1877 à 1968.
28C dans un losange : calibre, en usage de1898 à 1924.
EL en lettres anglaises : épreuve provisoire, en usage de 1852 à nos jours.
13,8 : calibre
L’arme porte également divers marquages soit :
G13004 : numérotation sans correspondance connue.
T5355 – 50560 – 102 -
J 76 – D4 – BB : idem ci-dessus.
/ / / : Marques d’équipeurs.
Il ressemble étrangement au fusil "Gras" français, sauf le fait que le verrou
est coudé mais peut-être ce modèle existe t'il dans les différentes fabrications
du fusil Gras !?
GG
Identification 3033
It is
about a shotgun to double juxtaposed barrels (gauges?). Locks are known as
“behind”. The hammers are external. The key superior is known as “Top Lever”.
The double trigger is under oval trigger guard. The forearm is not enough
visible to determine its type. The stick in walnut is worked "with English".
The
weapon carries the lawful punches of the profhouse of Liege, namely:
ELG* in
a vertical oval:
final acceptance, of use of 1846 to 1893.
S*: countermark of the controller post 1877.
Peron:
inspection post 1853.
279:
classification of the weapon?
6D: does workshop mark?
The
weapon also carries the mark of the manufacturer, that is to say FAND HANQUET
LIEGE, it acts of the arms manufacturer of Liège Ferdinand HANQUET registered
with the profhouse of Liège of 1872 to 1920. The company will be taken again in
1920 by the
Fabrique d’Armes Unies de Liège
(F.A.U.L).
GG
Identification 3034
It is
about a shotgun of the hammerless type to central percussion. The weapon
operates using the key superior “Top lever. The weapon is equipped with a safety
of the type “Galand”. The stick in walnut is of standard “pistol”. The barrels
of gauge 16 are juxtaposed. The double trigger is protected by an oval trigger
guard. The forearm is of type “with pump”. It carries a rich animalist engraving
gilded on arabesques.
The
weapon carries the lawful punches of the proofhouse of Liege, namely:
ELG* in
a crowned oval:
final acceptance of 1893 to our days.
Peron:
inspection post 1853.
X* and
AV*:
countermarks of the controllers, of use of 1877 to 1968.
EL in
English letters:
provisional test, of use of 1852 to our days.
Stylized
lion surmounting letters PV:
test with the smoke-free powder, of use of 1898 to 1968.
16C in a
rhombus:
gauge, of use from 10/4/1898 to 6/30/1924.
Choke
16.2/17.0 and 15.5/17.2:
chokes barrels gauged in mm with 22cm of the breech and the mouth. Of use from
2/25/1910 to 6/30/1924.
P1Kg31,6
(read so well?): Weight of the barrel which can draw from the smoke-free powders
(smooth weapons). In use from June 11th, 1892 to June 30th, 1924.
D=65/19,0:
length of the room in mm and diameter in mm after optional test with the
smoke-free powder. In use from 6/6/1892 to 6/30/1924.
M.C.C.T
in a circle:
punch of manufacturer of barrels for firearms not identified?
The
weapon also carries the following marks:
78672:
classification of the weapon.
7975:
classification of the gun.
440:
on forearm, classification of workshop?
J F and
C * in a vertical oval:
it is the mark of the manufacturer of Liège
JANSEN Fils &
Co, street Lambert the stammerer, n° 4.
This firm was registered with the ^proofhouse of Liège of 1895 with 1937. It
deposited 2 patents for a rifle hammerless with central fire. The firm deposited
28 trademarks.
Mécanisme par la fabrique d’armes de guerre de Herstal: mechanism manufactures by the F.N. HERSTAL!!
GG
Identification 3035
It is
about a revolver top break of the type S&W to central percussion. The opening is
practiced while drawing on the higher pedal in front of the hammer. The cylinder
with six shots (gauges 38?) comprises a star extractor. The long barrel is round
with a hollow band superior. The grips are out of wood (walnut?) smooth and are
maintained by a cross screw.
The
weapon carries the lawful punches of the proofhouse of Liege, that is to say:
ELG* in
a crowned oval:
final acceptance of use of 1893 to 1968.
C*: countermark of the controller, of use of 1877 to 1968.
L
crowned:
would it be about a manufacturer of barrels?
The
weapon also carries some marks is:
FDC 440:
it is the mark of the manufacturer
François
DUMOULIN in LIEGE (Proofhouse 1894/1968)
(more complete answer on our site).
F with
three branches:
probably a mark of the manufacturer?
BELGIUM:
without comment.
LI? (not very readable): marks of subcontractor?
GG
Identification 3037
Il
s’agit d’un revolver à percussion centrale, barillet à 6 à coups, canon mi rond
et mi hexagonal avec guidon en demi-lune. La détente est courbe avec pontet
ovale à repose à doigt. Les crossettes sont en bois
quadrillé noir (noyer ??) avec vis centrale de
maintien. La crosse se termine par un anneau et sa vis de calotte.
L’arme porte les poinçons du banc d’épreuves de Liège, soit :
- ELG* dans un ovale vertical : acceptation définitive,
1877/1893.
- H couronné : contremarque du contrôleur, 1853/1877.
Elle porte également les marques suivantes :
Modèle NS 1885 et NS : il s’agit des marques
du fabricant ! Il pourrait s’air de :
-
SIMON Noël, industriel, rue Fontaine,
260 à HERSTAL, auteur de 10 brevets de 1873 à 1892.
-
SIMONIS, Nicolas, Blegny-Trembleur,
auteur de 3 brevets de 1877 à 1907.
8 :
il s’agirait à mon sens du numéro de l’arme ?
MB :
vraisemblablement la marque d’un sous-traitant non identifié.
GG
Identification 3039
In spite of the little of images, what I then to withdraw some here:
- It is about part of shotgun to central percussion of type “hammerless”. The
two juxtaposed barrels, of gauge 20, are smooth. The double trigger is under
trigger guard.
- The weapon carries the lawful punches of the proofhouse of Liege, that is to
say:
ELG*
in a crowned oval: final acceptance,
1893/1968.
20 C in a rhombus: gauge, 1898/1924.
Peron: inspection, 1853/à our days.
M* and X*: countermarks from the controllers, 1877/1968.
PV surmounted of a stylized lion: test to the smoke-free
powder, 1898/1968.
P.1K114: weight of the barrel which can draw from the smoke-free powders (smooth
weapons) except for the gram. In use of June 30th, 1924 at our days.
D= 70/17.7: length of the room in mm and diameter in mm after
optional test with the smoke-free powder. 1892/June 30th, 1924.
EL in English letters: provisional test, 1852 at our days.
15.0 - 15.8: chokes barrels, gauged in mm to 22 cm of the breech
and the mouth. 1898/1910.
The weapon also following marks:
J.G on the barrel: probably a manufacturer of barrels of rifles which I
could not identify.
MR engraved with the fine gold: probably the initial ones of the first
owner.
A. GODEFROID J. LEJEUNE-FAUVE SUCCURSALLE LIEGE: In 1885, Godefroid A.
shares its activity with Godefroid N. and its brother Godefroid Gustave. In 1913
the activity is taken over by Lejeune Fauvé.
GG
Identification 3043
It is
about a shotgun to central percussion and external hammers. The key of crack is
of standard “Top lever”.
Locks
are known as “behind”. The double trigger is under oval trigger guard. The
forearm carries a kind of opening which is unknown for me. The stick in walnut
is of standard “pistol - to cheek”.
The
weapon carries the lawful punches of the proofhouse of tests of Liege, that is
to say:
ELG* in
a crowned oval:
final acceptance post 1893.
Peron:
inspection post 1853.
H*: countermark from the controller, 1877/1968.
16 C in
a rhombus:
gauge, of use of 1898 to 1924.
EL in
English letters:
provisional test, of use of 1852 to our days.
CHOKE
16.7/16.9:
chokes barrels, gauged in mm to 22 cm of the breech and the mouth. In use of the
25.02.1910 to the 30.06.1924.
The
manufacturer of Liège did not leave any visible mark, it will thus remain
unknown.
GG
Identification 3046
It is
about a shotgun to central percussion, hammers external and key of opening “top
lever”. The barrels in fine Damas Boston are smooth and of gauge 16. The metal
butt plate is with reasons in particular an eagle with the spread wings. The
lock called “ahead” are engraved arabesques. The double trigger curved is under
an oval trigger guard. The stick of form “pistol” is out of wood of walnut.
The
weapon carries the lawful punches of the proofhouse of Liege, that is to say:
ELG* in
a crowned oval:
final acceptance, of use of 1893 to 1968.
16 C in
a rhombus:
gauge, of use of 1898 to 1924.
M*: countermark of the controller, of use of 1877 to 1968.
Peron:
inspection, of use of 1853 to our days.
16,4/17,0:
chokes barrels, gauged in mm to 22 cm of the breech and the mouth. In use of
1910 to 1924.
EL in
English letters:
provisional test, of use of 1852 to our days.
Not for
ball:
chokes unrifled bores. In use of 1878 to 1897. These dates are not compatible
with others, I am unaware of the cause of it.
The
weapon also carries the following marks:
J-B
Rongé Son in Liège:
manufacturer well-known inhabitant of Liège. See the site.
23995
and 23018:
marks of manufacturing struck the weapon (guns and battery).
H.W:
mark of manufacturer of barrels of rifles of Vesdre (Liege) not indexed.
GG
I you like nice belgians weapon, SEE HERE
Identification 3047
C'est un Darne R15 (5 symboles Darne ressemblant à un panneau de sens interdit),
donc le plus luxueux de la gamme des R qui vont du R10 au R 15 ensuite on monte
en gamme et on passe à la gamme "P" (P16, P17, P18) puis à la gamme "V" du 19 au
23 Hors série!
Le fusil présenté est un modèle à petite clef.(R)
Les modèles à grande clef sont des P ou V.
Pour avoir le modèle, il suffit de compter le nombre de
poinçons ronds sous la frette et ajouter 10.
Le R10 est marqué type 10.Puis les autres qui n'ont que
des poinçons ronds sont:
R11,R12,R13,R14,R15
P17,P18
V19,V20,V21,V22, VHS
Les R ont des obturateurs convergents à partir du
R13;comme les P et V.( sauf les premières années vers 1900)
Les R s'arment en ouvrant la culasse, et les P et V en
la fermant.
Le démontage des canons des R s'opère en basculant un
verrou dans la table, alors que les P et V ont un poussoir devant le pontet.
Ce fusil est chambré en 12-65; a subi la triple épreuve
à la poudre T à l'état de livraison (foudres)
L'âme du canon est au diamètre 18,2 (fusil ancien).Les
canons sont frettés.
Le canon gauche choké full n'est pas recommandé pour la
balle.
Les Darne d'avant 1910 n'avaient pas de canons frettés
(comme les Halifax)
3C63 est le matricule de l'arme.
Les ets Bruchet-Darne à Saint-Etienne peuvent quelque
fois donner l'année de sortie avec le N°.
Identification 3052
Single-barrelled gun of gauge 12
Key
closing under the standard gun Lefaucheux, gun undoubtedly false Damas
Punches:
Peron:
inspection since 1853 until our days.
ELG on
asterisk in oval:
acceptance between 1846 and 1893
Letters
EL
: provisional test since 1852
R
spangled:
countermark of the controller between 1877 and 1968
18.2:
gauge 12
With the
risk to strongly disappoint the owner of the weapon, it cannot in no case to be
a question of a production of Lebeau-Courally because the weapon is not signed
and especially its type and the quality (?) of completion does not correspond to
the standards of Lebeau-Courally.
GP
Moreover
the punches indicate a manufacturing between 1877 and 1893, but Lebeau-Courally
exists only since 1920!!
Alain
Identification 3058
It is
about a shotgun to central percussion. The unrifled bores of gauge 12 are smooth
and juxtaposed. Double closing with bolt is actuated by the lever between the
hammers. Locks are known as “ahead”. They are decorated with animalist reasons
and arabesques. The double trigger is protected by an oval trigger guard. The
wood front is of type “with pump”. The stick of walnut (French?) is of standard
“pistol”.
The
weapon carries the lawful punches of the proofhouse of Liege, that is to say:
ELG* in
a crowned oval:
final acceptance, 1893/1968.
AB* - S*
- double P reversed:
countermarks from the controllers, 1877/1968.
Peron:
inspection, of use of 1853 to our days.
EL in
English letters:
provisional test, of use of 1852 to our days.
12C in a
vertical rhombus:
gauge, of use of 1898 to 1924.
PV
surmounted of a stylized lion:
test with the smoke-free powder, of use of 1898 to 1968.
D=
70%/20.7:
length of the room in mm and diameter in mm after optional test with the
smoke-free powder. In use of 1892 to 1924.
Choke
17.6/18.3:
chokes barrels, gauged in mm to 22 cm of the breech and the mouth. In use of
1910 to 1924.
P1K562,
1:
weight of the barrrel which can draw from the smoke-free powders (smooth
weapons) Of use of 1892 to 1924.
The
other marks mean:
ACN in a
circle:
mark of the manufacturer of guns of rifles NEUPREZ in Liege.
Figures
2642 - 1679 - 52:
classification of the weapon.
PIRLOT &
FRESARD LIEGE:
mark of the manufacturer of Liège of the weapon which was installed in Liege,
street Saint Gilles, 95 (see our site).
GG.
Identification 3059
It is
about a shotgun to central percussion. The double-juxtaposed barrels are smooth
and of gauge 16. The forearm is with push rod. The engraving of locks of the
hammerless type is of type “melts hollow” it represents a dragon surrounded by
foliage.
The
punches, of which some are not very readable, emanate from the proofhouse of
Liège, namely:
ELG* in
a crowned oval:
final acceptance, 1893/1968.
B* and
J*:
countermarks from the controllers, 1877/1968.
Peron:
inspection, of use of 1853 to our days.
16C in a
rhombus:
gauge, 1898/1924.
PV
surmounted of a stylized lion:
test with the smoke-free powder. 1898/1968.
EL in
English letters:
provisional test, of use of 1852 to our days.
POK997,
8:
weight of the barrel which can draw from the smoke-free powders (smooth
weapons).
D =
illegible:
length of the room in mm and diameter in mm after optional test with the
smoke-free powder. 1892/1924.
???/17.0
(Illegible):
chokes barrels, gauged in mm with 22cm of the breech and the mouth. 1910/1924.
The
weapon also carries engraved to the fine gold, marking
EPREUVE A LA POUDRE PYROXILEE
(Tested with powder pyroxillee), this kind of powder is a modern powder by
comparison of "Black Powder".
The
weapon does not seem to carry any marking of manufacturer,
GG
Identification 3061
It is about a banal pocket revolver of pin of the Lefaucheux type made in Liege in thousands of specimens. The nonalveolate cylinder with six blows is notched for the cartridges with pin. This one is accessible for the loading by the right back door. It carries an engraving of vineleaves. The barrel is round and probably striped with a front sight rectangular. The hammer is with head punt to strike the pins. The metal rod is of standard “nail”. The trigger is folding without trigger guard. The two plates seem to be out of ebony (or false-ebony) and are connected by a central screw to ears.
This part carries the punches of the proofhouse of Liege, that is to say:
ELG* in a vertical oval: final acceptance, of use of 1846 to 1993.
Z crowned: countermark of the controller, of use of 1853 to 1877.
It also carries a horizontal oval mark with not very readable letters
(P.D - Data base - etc??) We could not identify this manufacturer.
GG
Identification 3074
Percussion shooting carbine made by Augste Francotte in Liège, Belgium.
Proofmark of the Proofbank of Liège (ELG in oval) and AF from Francotte.
The calibre is unknown due through the lack of information from the owner.
We use the name “shooting carbine” because of the sighting, a little more
elaborate than the classic back-sight, although it is quite crude (in our XXIst
century eyes anyway).
This carbine should have been made between the years 1820/1830 and 1860/1870.
There is quite an anachronism between this period of fabrication, and the prize
small plates screwed on the butt. The plates, in Danish, come from a first prize
given by the Home Ministry in 1871 and from a prize given by the city of
Fredericia (Jutland) in 1876. But we have to realize that at this time, metallic
cartridges were already used.
First we thought that it was a prize carbine given by
the Danish Home Ministry in 1871. But how can the plate form Fredericia in 1876
then
been explained? And this plate is followed by another
one (also in 1876) with, maybe, the name of the shooter. We also noticed that
the screws of the plates are different.
Everything considered, it could be a shooting carbine used – succesfully – up to
1876 by a shooter who got a prize from the Home Ministry in 1871 and another one
from the city of Fredericia in 1876.
Anyway, it is a reality that Belgian arms were much used and appreciated far
from Belgium.
We had contact with the (very interesting) museum of Arms of Copenhague but they
could not help us. In the XIXth century, shooting was very popular, there were a
lot of competitions because shooting was then seen as a “national” sport (also
for the defence of the country, of course… times change…). And shooting prizes
were very various!
Let us also remember that Auguste Francotte made revolvers fort the Danish
Cavalry and Danish officers.
GP
Identification 3075
Un classique fusil de chasse juxtaposé hammerless à fermeture à clé « top lever ».
63975 est quasi certainement le n° de l’arme.
Les poinçons :
EL en lettres anglaises : épreuve provisoire depuis 1852
Perron : poinçon d’inspection en vigueur depuis le 16 juin 1853 jusqu’à nos jours
PV sous lion : épreuve à la poudre vive entre le 4 octobre 1898 et le 26 février 1968
12 C dans un losange :
calibre 12
(en usage entre 1898 et
1924)
65 mm correspond à la longueur de la chambre et donc des munitions.
X étoilé et V étoilé :
contremarques de contrôleurs en usage entre 1877 et 1968
Poinçon ELG dans un ovale sous couronne : acceptation définitive en usage du 11 juillet 1893 à 1968.
Acier Cockerill : le type d’acier utilisé pour les canons.
P 1 kg 288,3 : poids du canon, en vigueur depuis le 30 juin 1924
AF couronné : poinçon d’Auguste Francotte.
Il est signé « Auguste Francotte Breveté à Liège » sur le canon. Voir le site littlegun.be (armes belges, artisans identifiés) pour l’histoire de cette grande dynastie armurière liégeoise qui a produit tant des armes civiles que militaires pendant un peu moins de deux siècles.
GP
Le recoupement théorique des différentes dates donne une date de fabrication de 1924 mais sans garantie aucune. Aucune archive ne reprends les N° de série des armes de Francotte par date de fabrication !!
Alain Daubresse
Identification 3076
Rifle with two barrels, key top lever, with locks, in calibre 9,3 x 74R with
stick in walnut shaped and forearm with psh button fabricated by the society
Magilissen, successor to Antoine Defourny, engraved by F. DUPONT (signature
under the key).
Bradawls:
Peron (steps):
applied examination from 1853 to our days.
PV in oval crowned:
punch of acceptance for the lively powder since February 26th, 1968.
2880 kg cm2:
undoubtedly the pressure supported by cannons.
0004:
serial number of the weapon is more
than probably.
He should normally have other marks again there on barrels, and also annual
letter.
SL
could be put in touch with Saroléa in Haccourt, but without guarantee.
Another arms with an identical signature of F. DUPONT is known to us: it is
about a gun of Augustin Dardenne (see on the site littlegun. be).
This gun is dated of 1959.
We do not have other information on Magilissen, except that a "garnisseur"
of the same name existed in a not known period.
GP
Identification 3084
Hello Mr Bradstreet,
Here is the list of all patents of G. Zeller in Belgium as known for the
moment.
The patents of G. Zeller still exist at the “Office de la Propriété
intellectuelle” in Brussels (
http://www.1819.be/fr/organisations/office-belge-de-la-propriete-intellectuelle-opri
) and whether they can be consulted and copied.
GP & Max
I
can ask all these patent to the "Office de la propriété Intellectuelle" but
it is not free, it requires 3 euros per patent.
Alain
|
1873 |
033269 |
1873/09/17 |
ZELLER G. |
Rue
de Launay, 2 MOLENBEEK ST-JEAN (B) |
Perf |
Système de fusil se chargeant par la culasse (brvt ppal n° 028356 du
31/12/1870) |
|
1873 |
032054 |
1873/02/21 |
ZELLER G. |
Rue
de Launay, 2 MOLENBEEK ST-JEAN (B) |
Perf |
Modifications apportées au fusil se chargeant par la culasse (brvt
ppal n° 028356 du 31/12/1870) |
|
1871 |
029405 |
1871/09/28 |
ZELLER G. |
Chaussée de Ninove, 21 BRUXELLES (B) |
Perf |
Fusil se chargeant par la culasse (brvt ppal n° 028356 du
31/12/1870) |
|
1871 |
028795 |
1871/05/19 |
ZELLER G. |
BRUXELLES (B) |
Perf |
Modifications apportées au fusil se chargeant par la culasse (brvt
ppal n° 028356 du 31/12/1870) |
|
1872 |
030334 |
1872/04/04 |
ZELLER G. |
Rue
de Launay, 2 MOLENBEEK ST-JEAN (B) |
Perf |
Fusil se chargeant par la culasse (brvt ppal n° 028356 du
31/12/1870) |
|
1877 |
043476 |
1877/11/06 |
ZELLER G. |
Fuabourg Vivegnis, 161 LIEGE (B) |
Inv. |
Fusil se chargeant par la culasse |
|
1871 |
028941 |
1871/06/24 |
ZELLER G. |
BRUXELLES (B) |
Perf |
Modifications apportées au fusil se chargeant par la culasse (brvt
ppal n° 028356 du 31/12/1870) |
|
1870 |
028220 |
1870/11/12 |
ZELLER G. |
SAINT JOSSE-TEN-NOODE (B) |
Inv. |
Système de fusil se chargeant par la culasse |
|
1873 |
033046 |
1873/08/05 |
ZELLER G. |
Rue
de Launay, 2 MOLENBEEK ST-JEAN (B) |
Perf |
Modifications apportées au fusil se chargeant par la culasse (brvt
ppal n° 028356 du 31/12/1870) |
|
1872 |
031136 |
1872/09/04 |
ZELLER G. |
Rue
de Launay, 2 MOLENBEEK ST-JEAN (B) |
Perf |
Modifications apportées au fusil se chargeant par la culasse (brvt
ppal n° 028356 du 31/12/1870) |
|
1870 |
028356 |
1870/12/31 |
ZELLER G. |
Rue
de la Senne, 75 BRUXELLES (B) |
Inv. |
Fusil se chargeant par la culasse |
Identification 3085
Pistolet espagnol Imperial
Pistolet espagnol modèle « Imperial » en calibre 6,35 mm fabriqué pour ou par la société José Aldazabal d’Eibar, gravé or et plaquettes de nacre.
Aucune photo d’éventuels poinçons ni de marquage.
La région d’Eibar a inondé le marché de pistolets généralement bon marché et de qualité souvent décriée, surtout avant, pendant et après la 1GM. Près d’un million de pistolets type Ruby et de copies de revolvers (notamment Colt et S&W) en 8 mm ont ainsi été vendus à la France pendant la 1GM.
L’arme en question n’a évidemment pas de destination militaire puisqu’il s’agit d’un pistolet en calibre 6,35 mm souvent appelé « type Eibar » (une copie très simplifiée du Browning 1906 ?).
Selon Ian V. Hogg et John Weeks dans leur livre « Pistols of the World », il semble que les pistolets « Imperial » aient été fabriqués par Tomas de Urizar y Cia d’Eibar pour le compte de la société Hijos de José Aldazabal dont les initiales JA apparaissent sur les plaquettes.
Il y a une sûreté à l’arrière du bâti et un bouton de démontage juste au-dessus de la détente.
L’arme a été gravée or dans le style espagnol (Tolède) typique.
La société Urizar d’Eibar a été active entre 1900 et 1921. Le modèle Imperial daterait de 1914.
A noter que la marque « Imperial » a aussi été déposée par les firmes espagnoles suivantes :
Gregorio Bolumburu et Toribio Zulaica (dépôt officiel n° 20552)
En annexe des photos de pistolets Imperial 1910 et 1914 en version "populaire". Le modèle 1914 est en effet identique au modèle gravé (il est vrai sans l’inscription sur la culasse).
GP et MD
Identification 3087
Il s’agit d’une fabrication
“récente” (= arme de traite ou en tout cas d’export ?) d’un fusil à deux
coups à percussion, avec des canons en faux damas, une "décoration sommaire"
(on n’ose pas dire une gravure) sur les platines arrière, une boîte à
amorces dans la crosse. L’inscription (en espagnol ou portugais?) sur les
canons n’est pas lisible.
Les poinçons.
L’origine liégeoise ne fait
pas de doute.
Perron : 1853 à nos jours
V sous astérisque :
contremarque de 1877 à 1968
G sous astérisque :
contremarque de 1877 à 1968
EL en lettres anglaises :
épreuve provisoire de 1852 à nos jours
13.0 : calibre en mm
ELG dans un ovale : poinçon
d'acceptation définitive entre 1846 et 1893
D sous couronne : contremarque
d’un contrôleur ?
JD dans ovale : peut-être Jean
Duchateau mais sans garantie aucune.
MD dans losange allongé :
inconnu jusqu’à présent
Il s’agit d’une arme bon
marché et de faible calibre, sans doute destinée à l’exportation, peut-être
vers l’Amérique du Sud.
GP
Identification 3092
It is a completely collapsible rifle with English stick, with opening to
side key of Leclercq type gauges 12 mm of manufacturing of Liège of them.
“The” rifle of poacher by excellence.
The weapon seems in good state, having preserved a good part of its marbling
and bronzing of its barrel, octagonal first, then round.
One manufactured thousands of specimens of this kind of weapon, with one or
two barrels (generally juxtaposed), in a multiplicity of gauges, especially
in .410 or 12 mm like this specimen.
She is signed MEIZER-DUQUENNE LIEGE on the barrel.
One finds the punches usual of the proofhouse of Liège:
The peron (step)
: punch of inspection of 1853 to our days
PV under lion:
punch of test to the sharp (black) powder, used between on October 4th, 1898
and before February 26th, 1968
G under star:
countermark of the controller enters on January 27th, 1877 and before
February 26th, 1968.
10.4
are the gauge in mm (what corresponds to the 12 mm or .410)
EL in english letters:
provisional test, use since December 21st, 1852
0 kg610
is the weight of the barrel.
The Greek letter "Lambda" is the
yearly letter of 1954. Year of manufacture of your weapon.
ELG in a crowned oval
is the punch of acceptance since July 11th, 1893 until before February 26th,
1968.
410.65 in the Greek
letter Omega
gives the nominal gauge and the length of the room, of use since June 30th,
1924.
232
is undoubtedly the serial number of the weapon.
The house MEIZER-DUQUENNE is not taken again in
“Who's who arms manufacturer of Liège”, nor in the works of our
late
friend
Guy Gadisseur on publicity in arms manufacture of Liège. One finds via
Internet some weapons of this house, of which a rifle of great hunting of
the Mauser type on the site littlegun.be, and other rifles Leclercq type.
GP
Identification 3093
It is here about a revolver in 5 shots, not specified calibre, copies the
model British Bull-Dog of Philip Webley & Son (see annexed document) by an
unknown Belgian producer and with good reason:
On May 23rd, 1881, the firm P. Webley and Son of Birmingham (GB) had
deposited in Belgium a trademark
«THE BRITISH BULL DOG».
Anecdote: it would seem that the American President James A. Garfield (who
will die from his wounds) is assassinated (7/2/1881) by one of these Belgian
copies of British Bull-dog in .44.
His design was use as a basis in WEBLEY RIC (Royal Irish Constabulary).
He carries the punches of the proofhouse of Liège:
Spangled ELG in an oval:
Applied Acceptance from 1846 till 1893.
R under star:
pass of the inspector from 1877 till 1968.
Estimate of the date of manufacture, between 1877
and 1898.
The Belgian producer having left draws no, he will remain therefore
anonymous!!
HPH
Identification 3094
Carabine de jardin de
fabrication liégeoise, habituellement appelée Warnant, à culasse longue,
canon octogonal et crosse à poignée pistolet en 9 mm Flobert. Arme très
courante pendant la première moitié du XXe siècle, fabriquée dans plusieurs
calibres, les plus courants étant le 6 et le 9 mm Flobert et le .410 (12 mm)
à percussion centrale.
Les poinçons : FL 9 mm
C sur le côté gauche du canon, indiquant le 9 mm Flobert
(percussion annulaire, à balle ou plombs).
ELG dans ovale sous couronne :
poinçon d’acceptation post 1893.
Perron : inspection en usage de
1853 à nos jours.
AL* : contremarque du contrôleur,
en usage de 1877 à 1968
L'arme a donc été fabriquée entre 1893 et 1968
La marque AS couronnée pourrait donc appartenir à Simonis albert ou Spirlet
Albert sans aucune certitude.
D'autant que la marque de Spirlet était souvent dans un losange !!
8.4 est le diamètre du canon.
976 est sans doute le numéro
de fabrication de cette arme qui a été produite à des milliers d’exemplaires
par de nombreux fabricants.
Manque à gauche de la culasse
le bouton permettant de l’ouvrir facilement.
Identification 3096
It is here about a revolver
in 5 blows, calibre .450 (455), carrying the mark "American Settler"
deposited by Lucien Clement on January 26th, 1899.
Lucien Clement, producer of
weapon in Liege, street Maghin 60 then street Chéri 47 (the same addresses
as Charles Clement).
I think that this weapon was
rather intended for the market of the Africain colonies: Belgian Congo
(American Settler = American colonist).
He carries the marks of the
proofhouse of Liege or :
Spangled ELG in oval
crowned: Applied Acceptance of from 1893.
B spangled:
pass of the inspector from January 27th, 1877.
R (a little bigger
than that of the inspector) crowned: mark of check on the rifled
handguns from January 30th, 1894 till February 26th, 1968.
24: Number of the weapon,
nevertheless it is rather about a number allowing to the filter to
reconstruct the weapon.
Estimate of the date of
manufacture, between 1899 and 1913 (the theoretical end of the black
powder).
HPH
Identification 3097
It is here about a pocket
revolver in 6 shots, calibre .320 (7,65 mm), of type Baby or Puppy.
In the absence of definite
marking, it is impossible to identify the producer, this type of weapon was
manufactured in several thousand copies by dozens producers.
Letters " EP « and " D "
would be initials belonging to the producer (artisan or worker) having
fabricated the parts where they appear.
He carries the mark of the
proofhouse of Liege or :
Spangled ELG in oval
crowned: Applied Acceptance of from 1893.
Spangled AT:
pass of the inspector from January 27th, 1877.
R (a little bigger
than that of the inspector) crowned: mark of check on the rifled
handguns from January 30th, 1894 till February 26th, 1968.
37: Number
of the weapon, nevertheless it is rather about a number allowing to the
filter to reconstruct the weapon.
Estimate of the date of
manufacture, between 1894 and 1913 (theoretical end of the black powder).
HPH
Identification 3098
Your revolver is a
revolver of the Lefaucheux type says “open frame”, i.e. the top is not fixed
at the part postpones weapon, only the low part of the carcass is maintained
by a screw with the front part.
Owing to the fact that
only a point of fixing maintained the barrel and its console with the
remainder of the weapon, these small revolvers were rather fragile.
In the area of Liege
hundreds of craftsmen manufactured these weapons per thousand for sale it in
many countries.
Its ammunition is a
cartridge “pinfire” which existed in gauge 5, 7, 9 and 12mm.
Until the invention of
the cartridge with central percussion the ammunition with pin were extremely
appreciated.
The calibre more the
current is the 7mm, which is probably the case of yours.
This weapon carries
only two punches of the proofhouse of Liege (Belgium) which one can define
as follows:
Ø
Spangled ELG in an oval:
final acceptance, of use of 1846 to 1893.
Ø
Letter (unreadable) spangled:
countermark of controller post 1877.
Therefore, period of
manufacture between 1877 and 1893.
The letters "HH" "JM"
and "IF" on the metal skeleton are marks of sub contractor.
The manufacturer will
remain anonymous because no marking is visible, reassure you that however
was often the case on these weapons of poor quality.
Alain
Identification 3099
It
is
a
shotgun
juxtaposed
of
type
Anson
and
Deeley
of
gauge
16,
with
a
pistol
stick
with
cheek
and
a
forearm
with
push rod,
with
key
of
opening
top
rising.
Markings
Cockerill
steel:
type
of
steel
used
to manufacture
the
guns.
16-65
in
an
omega:
gauge
16
and
length
of
the room
65
mm.
ELG
on
asterisk
in
a
crowned
oval:
test
enters
on July 11th,
1893 and
1968
Peron
(step):
inspection
since 1853.
EL
in English letters
: Provisional
test
since 1852.
Choke
16.4
Z
under
star:
countermark
of
the controller
of
use
of
1877
to 1968.
Greek
letter
delta
(without
warranty):
yearly
letter
of
1958,
which
could
thus
be
the year
of
the manufacturing
of
this
rifle.
I
or
JC
could
be
the
brand
of
the
manufacturer of barrels
Joseph Cap.
JF:
perhaps
the
initial
ones
of
Janssen Frères
or
the Workshops
J.
Falla.
Lion
on
PV:
test
with the
smoke-free
powder
enters
on October 4th, 1898
and
on February 26th, 1968.
1kg217
is
the
weight
of
the
barrel
which can
draw
from
the
smoke-free
powders
(since
June 30th, 1924
until
our
days).
N
in
one
ecu
is
the
Czech
punch
for
the
individual
test
of
the
unrifled bore
weapons
charged
by
the
breech
with
the
smoke-free
powder.
The
presence
of
the
Czech
punch
seems
to be
the
proof
that
the
weapon
was represented
with
the
test
in
this
country.
Identification 3100
Is it about a long rifle of gauge 10 (canardière?) juxtaposed with external hammers, stick half-pistol and single forearm, marked Imperial Belgium Damascus on the tape between the barrels and Janssen Arms C° on the lock.
Markings
EL
in English letters:
provisional
test
since 1852.
Peron:
inspection
since 1853.
V
under
star:
countermark
of
the controller
since 1877.
10
C
in
vertical
rhombus:
gauge
weapon.
19.0:
gauge
in
mm:
it
is
a little
strange
insofar as
a
gauge
10 fact
“normally”
19.7
mm;
but
as
one
can
also
read
registration
“choke
bored”,
this
undoubtedly
explains
that.
ELG
in
oval
under
crown:
acceptance
between
1893
and
1968.
36976
undoubtedly
the
number
of
the
weapon.
The
weapon
is
obviously
of
quality
poor
and
the
barrels
are certainly not
in
Damas,
notwithstanding
commercial
registration
on
the
tape.
This
commercial
registration
is allotted either
to
Henri Pieper
(of
which
rifles
were sold
with
this
registration in
the
United States
via
T.
Barker),
or
in
Janssen Fils
and
C°,
which
is
more probable
in
the case
which
occupies
to
us
being given
the
presence
of
Janssen Arms
C°
on
the turntable.
It
is
thus
undoubtedly
about
one
of
these
thousands
-
even
hundreds
of
thousands
-
rifles
of
Liège
of
less
quality
exported
towards
the
United States
before
the
1e
World war,
sold
at the time
between
10
and
20
dollars,
while
a
rifle
of
quality
was sold
minimum
100
dollars.
GP
Identification 3101
It
is
about
a
single-barrelled
gun
of
gauge
4
with
central
percussion,
closing
by
key
on
the
trigger guard
and
with
external
dog
on
a
back
turntable.
The
gun
seems
to be
in
Damas.
Markings
V
under
star:
countermark
of
the
controller
since 1877.
EL in English letters:
provisional
test
since 1952.
Peron (Little step):
inspection
since 1853.
ELG
in
oval
under
crown:
acceptance
between
1893
and
1968
4
C
in
a
vertical
rhombus:
gauge
weapon
(either
26
mm).
AP
under
star:
countermark
of
the
controller
since 1877.
JJ: not identified.
Admittedly,
the
Jacquemart
Workshops
signed
JJ,
but
their
working life
(end
of
the
Forties)
does not correspond
–
in our
opinion
–
to that
of
the
weapon.
GM
(?)
under
crown:
not identified.
Choke
216/232: choké
barrel:
cal
in
mm
to
22 cm
of
the
breech and the
mouth.
In
use
from February 1910 to June 1924.
The
weapon
was
thus
probably
manufactured
between
1910
and
1924.
It
was undoubtedly intended
for
hunting
for
waterfowl.
GP
Identification 3103
Pistolet de tir à un coup, canon basculant, fermeture Tranter, finition noire, crosse noyer quadrillée, bascule jaspée avec hausse et guidon suisses, portant les poinçons réglementaires du banc d’épreuves de LIEGE, à savoir :
ELG sur étoile dans un ovale couronné : acceptation définitive post 1893.
C étoilé : contremarque du contrôleur post 1877.
Perron : poinçon de l’inspecteur du Banc d’Epreuves en usage de 1853 à nos jours.
R couronné : canon rayé, en usage de 1894 à 1968.
L’arme porte également la marque .22L qui signifie qu’elle est de calibre 22 long (6 mm) annulaire.
RW : vraisemblablement les initiales de l’artisan/ouvrier ayant fabriqué la carcasse
Belgique : sans commentaire
Le fabricant : Meyers-Coune Henri, armurier à Cheratte, il dépose en 1913 deux brevets pour un système de pistolet par déflagration des gaz, combinant le recul en trois endroits et à mouvement de détente inverse ainsi qu’un nouveau dispositif applicable aux armes automatiques. En annexe extrait d’un catalogue de 1909 de la manufacture d’armes L. Ancion-Marx (LAM) ou la même arme figure sous la référence 23TH
HPH
Identification 3111
Skeletal
Leclercq
stick
It
is
about
a
collapsible
rifle
standard
Leclercq
with
skeletal
stick
gauges
.38
of
them
Remington
of
manufacturing
inhabitant of Liège.
Markings
Perron
(little step)
:
inspection
since 1853
C
under
star:
countermark
of
the controller
since 1877
38
Remington:
the
ammunition
used
326896
undoubtedly
the
number
of
manufacturing
of
the
weapon.
There
are
certainly
other
punches
under
the
barrel
but
they
were not photographed.
In theory,
it
is enough
to push
the
button
close
to
the screw to make
fold
the barrel
completely
(and
to see
the
punches
well).
This kind of
Leclercq
rifle
was abundantly produced
in
Liege,
in
a large number of
gauges.
More rarely
with
such
a skeletal
stick.
The
polished
and
partially
gilded
completion
is certainly not
origin.
The
.38
Remington
(approximately
9.6
mm)
with annular
percussion
is not
current
in
Belgium;
it
was
extremely
widespread
between
1870
and
1900
in
the United
States,
so much
for
revolvers
than
of
the rifles
and
the production
ceased
before 1940.
The
cartridge
existed
in
version
shorts,
length,
extra-long
and
with leads.
It
would be necessary
to measure
the
diameter
of
the
barrel
to
the
chamber
because
it
seems
higher
to
me
than
9.6
mm,
but
it
is
perhaps
only
one
impression…
It
is
quasi
certainly
about
a
production
for
export
towards
the
United States.
GP
Identification 3120
Il s’agit d’un intéressant revolver à bascule de type bossu (chien intérieur) à cinq coups de calibre non précisé combinant deux, voire trois brevets de Pierre Wertz, fabricant d’armes à Chefneux-Barchon. Il a été inscrit au Banc d’Epreuves en 1913 et 1914. Il a déposé sept brevets entre 1902 et 1910.
Les marquages
Sur le barillet : ELG dans ovale couronné : acceptation entre 1893 et 1968
G étoilé : contremarque du contrôleur depuis 1877
6 : ?
Sur le corps : R couronné : canon rayé entre 1894 et 1968
G étoilé : contremarque du contrôleur
Lion sur PV : épreuve à la poudre sans fumée entre 1898 et 1968.
75 ?
La clé latérale sur le côté gauche est en fait la clé d’ouverture du revolver. Le système a fait l’objet du brevet 210.504 du 5 septembre 1908. Il concerne une "fermeture pour armes basculantes par le prolongement du canon, venant se caler dans le corps de l’arme, au moyen d’un crochet et d’une clef automatique".
Le fond de la crosse peut glisser et ainsi actionner la sûreté ! On peut y lire la lettre S pour Sûreté (apparente lorsque l’arme est en sûreté) les lettres PW Bté dans un ovale, PW pour Pierre Wertz bien sûr. Aussi les lettres NN ( ?) et ce qu’on pourrait prendre pour deux L croisés dans un cercle incomplet ( ?).
Le système de sûreté porte le numéro 208.178 du 11 mai 1909. Il a été perfectionné par le brevet 217.562 du 2 juillet 1909. Il faudrait démonter les plaquettes pour voir la différence et déterminer ainsi le brevet utilisé.
GP avec l’aide efficace de MAX
Identification 3121
It is about a traditional rifle juxtaposed system Anson of gauge 12 with
triple locking, with English stick and forearm with pump. One can read on
the upper tape Lepage à Liege Acier
Cockerill (type of steel used).
Markings
Peron (little step):
inspection since 1853
EL: provisional test since 1852
Above choke:
CAB or ACB or BCA: undoubtedly
the mark of the gunner not identified. One could have thought of
Baltus, but its logo is
different:
ACB in a circle.
Choke 18.1:
choke barrel, indicating the gauge to 22 cm of the breech, of use between
1924 and 1968.
M under star and AD under
star:
countermark of the controller since 1877
Letter PV on lion:
test with the smoke-free powder between 1898 and 1968.
3468:
undoubtedly the serial number of the weapon.
S: not identified
12 C in a vertical
rhombus: gauge
weapon between 1898 and 1924
P 1k 561.4:
weight of the barrel (between 1892 and 1924).
D = 65 mm over 20.6:
length of the room and diameter of the barrel.
There is still a marking of two letters of which has, the whole under star:
undoubtedly a countermark of controller.
There is also a marking resembling C lying: not identified. One thinks of a
yearly letter, but one does not see which…
The Manufactory Lepage (street of Augustins 26 in Liege) was registered with
the proofhouse of Liege between 1919 and 1961.
GP
Identification 3124
It is about a traditional shotgun of gauge 16, with juxtaposed barrels and
external hammers, English stick and forearm with push rod.
Markings
Peron:
inspection since 1853
EL: provisional test since 1852
ELG in a crowned oval:
acceptance between 1893 and 1968
16 C in a vertical
rhombus: gauge
weapon, of use between 1898 and 1924
P. 1 K 306.8:
weight of the barrel (between 1892 and 1924)
U spangled and spangled
AD:
countermarks of controllers since 1877
CHOKE 16.2 over 16.8:
in use between 1910 and 1924
D=65 mm over 18.7:
length of the room and diameter of the gun
ACC in a round:
not identified
LD in a rhombus:
maybe according to a source: Jeanne
Demarteau, street of the Minors, 69, with Herstal, registered with the
proofhouse in 1947-1948; maybe, more probably,
Dumoulin Lambert, street
Bassenge, 2, in Liege, registered with the proofhouse of 1920 to 1965.
L 5:
not identified
We did not see a yearly letter, so that by deduction, one can date the
production between 1910 (choke) and 1921 (yearly letters having begun in
1922). And thus probably in Lambert
Dumoulin, the beginning of its career.
GP
Identification 3125
Il s’agit d’un fusil de chasse juxtaposé système Anson de calibre 12 à quadruple verrouillage, à crosse-pistolet à joue et longuesse à poussoir marqué Janssen & Fils et C°.
Les marquages
Perron : inspection depuis 1853
EL : épreuve provisoire depuis 1952
Lion sur PV : épreuve à la poudre sans fumée entre 1989 et 1968
M sous étoile : contremarque du contrôleur depuis 1877
ELG dans ovale couronné : acceptation entre 1893 et 1968
12-70 dans oméga couché : calibre nominal et longueur de la douille : depuis 1924 à nos jours
1kg435 : poids du canon depuis 1924
V : peut-être la lettre annale pour 1943
Choke 18.2 : calibre à 22 cm de la culasse entre 1924 et 1968
JF&C : Janssen Fils et Cie
Janssen Fils & Cie, commerçants en armes, rue Lambert Le Bègue, 4 à Liège, maison fondée en 1867, inscrits au BE entre 1895 et 1937. La société a été mise en liquidation le 1er janvier 1935. Lui a succédé la S.A. Janssen Fils & C°, rue Saint-Gilles, 87 à Liège. Elle a été inscrite au BE entre 1937 et 1951.
GP
Identification 3126
It is about traditional “a rifle of garden” standard Warnant long breech
gauges 7 mm Flobert (annular percussion), with squared English stick with
the handle and on part of the wood, with octagonal barrel, trigger guard
with volutes, with the mention Dresse-Laloux & C° Liege and the mark with
the bee in a circle with the letters D and L on the wings.
Markings
Peron
(little step) : inspection since 1853
ELG in oval under crown:
acceptance between 1893 and 1968. These two punches are of application to
the rifles of living room with blasting powder.
R crowned:
rifled bore between 1894 and 1968; question with the owner: is the gun
actually striped?
A (?) under star:
countermark of the controller since 1877
FL 7 M:
gauge 7 mm Flobert with annular percussion
FH: not identified
Dresse-Laloux
deposited the mark with the bee on January 28th, 1881. It was registered
with the proofhouse of 1867 to 1908. In 1908, the activity was taken over by
the
Establishments Georges Laloux.
Jean Warnant
(1845-1913) deposited not less than 36 patents of which several being able
to refer to the rifle in question, between 1868 and 1873.
This kind of rifle was produced to thousands of specimens in various gauges
with annular and central percussion.
The cartridge 7 mm Flobert is not marketed any more since decades, one of
the last known manufacturing going back to 1925.
GP
Note of Littlegun
If you like nice belgian weapons, see my books : http://www.littlegun.be/livres/a%20a%20livre%20alain%20general.htm
Alain Daubresse (Author of these books)
Identification 3128
Il s’agit d’un très beau fusil liégeois juxtaposé top break, sans doute à platines, gravé par Léonard Smeets, fabriqué pour l’armurier parisien Charles Maugein. Crosse anglaise en noyer bien veiné. Longuesse (avant bois) à poussoir.
Les marquages
Perron : inspection depuis 1853
ELG dans une ovale sous couronne : acceptation entre 1893 et 1968
V et G sous étoile : contremarques de contrôleurs depuis 1877
Lion sur PV : épreuve à la poudre sans fumée entre 1898 et 1968
12-70 dans un oméga couché : calibre nominal et longueur de la douille (depuis 1924)
Lettre grecque thèta : lettre annale pour 1953
602 : numéro de l’arme
Trademark et un dessin comprenant une espèce de cèdre (?) sur une boule (?) et un cône et 60884 et 60885 : les numéros de fabrication des canons par un canonnier non identifié jusqu’à présent ; il est bien répertorié mais sans aucune précision, sinon la mention Whithworth. On lira aussi avec intérêt le lien suivant : https://shotguncollector.com/2017/06/21/the-beginning-of-the-steel-age/ . On y remarquera d’une part les armoiries de Sir Joseph Whitworth qui ont un lien de parenté avec le dessin de ces canons, d’autre part les canons d’un fusil d’Auguste Lebeau, avec aussi un logo du même style au milieu de la mention trademark…. Curieux, vous avez dit bizarre…
1kg479 : poids du canon (depuis 1924)
18.4 choke 18.3 : diamètre du canon et du choke
VC couronné : non identifié (ce sont certes les initiales de Victor Collette, mais à ma connaissance, il n’a produit que des pistolets).
Sur la bande : Made of Sir Joseph Whithworth’s Fluid Pressed Steel made for Charles Maugein Paris. Type d’acier produit sous pression breveté en 1866 par Sir Joseph Whitworth (http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Joseph_Whitworth et aussi http://www.shootinguk.co.uk/answers/what-is-fluid-steel-and-is-it-stronger-than-damascus-steel-13767 et enfin http://firearmshistory.blogspot.be/2014/11/metals-used-in-firearms-xv.html ).
On trouve régulièrement cette mention sur des armes généralement de haute qualité.
La gravure a été réalisée par Léonard Smeets, graveur et incrusteur de SM le Roi (des Belges) (brevet accordé en 1952) (voir le site littlegun.be dans la partie consacrée aux graveurs).
Selon le « Qui est qui » de l’armurerie française, Charles Mangein était armurier à Paris entre 1934 et 1939. Toutefois, la toile nous apprend qu’il était encore en activité dans les années 1950-60, ce qui correspond bien à la date de fabrication de ce beau fusil, à savoir 1953. La plupart des fusils signés Charles Mangein vus sur la toile sont de fabrication liégeoise.
GP
Identification 3129
Voici un juxtaposé en calibre .577 express de fabrication liégeoise « fini » par la maison parisienne Gastinne Renette. Chiens extérieurs, platines arrière, crosse pistolet à joue, à triple fermeture. Fermeture à clé sur le pontet.
Les marquages
Perron : inspection depuis 1853
ELG dans ovale sous couronne : acceptation entre 1893 et 1968.
R couronné : canon rayé entre 1894 et 1968
EL : acceptation provisoire depuis 1852
S sous étoile : contremarque du contrôleur depuis 1877
LR sous couronne : non identifié. On pourrait penser à L. Rotsaert mais 1° ses initiales sont dans un cercle aplati ; 2° on mentionne la date de 1948 pour ce fabricant, ce qui ne correspond pas du tout à la période de fabrication de l’arme en question.
On pourrait aussi penser à Rouma Lambert qui a été inscrit au Banc d’Epreuves de 1877 à 1909 et a déposé cinq brevets. Les dates correspondent mais c'est sans garantie aucune.
5647 est le numéro de l’arme.
Cal. .577 express : calibre de l’arme, un calibre courant à poudre noire pour le gros gibier avant 1914.
14.5 : le calibre de l’arme en mm
L’absence de lettre annale nous fait pencher pour une production entre 1893 et 1921, davantage même pour la fourchette basse, étant donné qu’il s’agit d’une arme à poudre noire (absence du marquage du lion sur PV).
La maison parisienne Gastinne-Renette, hélas disparue, fut un beau fleuron de l’armurerie française pendant presque deux siècles. Comme beaucoup d’autres grandes maisons françaises, elle s’est régulièrement approvisionnée à Liège, quitte, pour des raisons commerciales, à faire apposer des mentions comme celle-ci : « Fini par Gastinne-Renette à Paris ».
GP
Identification 3130
Here one juxtaposed of
type Anson to rifled bores carrying the punch of Auguste Francotte. Stick
half-pistol, forearm with pedal-trough. Scope.
Markings
Peron:
inspection since 1853
ELG in oval under crown:
acceptance between 1893 and 1968.
Lion on PV:
test with the smoke-free powder between 1898 and 1968.
R under crown:
rifled bore between 1894 and 1968.
b. blindée
(ball armor-plated): rifled bores of gauge higher than .22 for lined balls,
between 1910 and 1968.
EL: provisional test since 1852.
P and W under star:
countermarks of controllers since 1877.
80705:
number of the weapon?
AF under crown in oval:
one of the marks of the house Auguste
Francotte.
There is also a
species of thèta under star: it resembles much the mark of the Duarme
Establishments in Vottem, but without guarantee none.
87: not identified.
One also sees on the
left gun an inscription extremely unobtrusive and in any case incomplete:
SM Le Roi (His Majesty The King).
Is there undoubtedly the name of the arms manufacturer on the right barrel,
hidden by the mounting of the scope?
I also believe to
recognize below right barrel one of the logos of the company of the gunner
Jean Cap.
A little surprised not
to see mention of the gauge, unless they are 8.7?
The
Francotte dynasty was active in
Liege during nearly two centuries (1810-1991).
GP
Identification 3131
Here a very beautiful
shotgun juxtaposed to external hammers, Damas barrels, English stick,
forearm with full pedal, key top break, abundantly engraved but, signed
Galand in Paris, in its box with some accessories (screwdriver, rod and
brushes), tested in Liege.
Markings
On the table:
Barrel of Galand patented manufacturer;
Peron: inspection
since 1853
ELG in oval:
acceptance before July 1893
EL: provisional test
since 1852
S and Z under star:
countermark of the controller since 1877
GV in a circle: could
be the manufacturer of barrels Gosme & Van Heer
17.4: gauge in mm,
that is to say a gauge 16
CHOKE: chokés unrifled
bores, between on January 30th, 1897 and on October 4th, 1898.
WD: not identified
In theory, this rifle
thus goes back to before July 1893 (ELG in oval), and even of before June
11th, 1892, date on which one started to indicate the weight of the barrels.
But the presence - twice - mention “choke” is difficult to explain since in
theory, according to the literature that I have, it does not appear (thus
without mention of figures) only between on January 30th, 1897 and on
October 4th, 1898. Mystery and "swell of gum…."
The box seems to me
quite young for a manufacturing of before 1893. But that wants nothing to
say because the Galand house existed until 1942.
Charles-François
Galand (1832-1900) is well-known, especially for his revolvers, but also for
his shotguns of great quality, like the specimen examined here. He started
his activities in 1870 and opened branches, in Liege and London. He had also
workshops decentralized in Liege (of 1870 to 1890 according to one of the
consulted sources) and in Birmingham. Examined rifle is thus a product of
the workshop of Liège. His oldest son Rene took again the company with the
death of his father until 1942.
GP
Consulted sources: Der
Neue Stockel, Eugene Heer;
Onomastic lexicon of the arquebusiers… Jean-Claude Mournetas.
Identification 3132
Carabine à crosse demi-pistolet en cours de restauration.
Les marquages
.22 L : .22
Long
R couronné : canon rayé entre 1894 et 1968.
M sous étoile : contremarque du contrôleur depuis 1877
Lion sur PV : épreuve à la poudre sans fumée entre 1898 et 1968.
Perron : inspection depuis 1853
ELG dans un ovale couronné : acceptation entre 1893 et 1968.
AJD Patent Automatic’s
Works ( ?) Herstal Belgium :
AJD pour Antoine Joseph Defourny.
Voila ci-dessous le document technique en haute résolution.
Antoine Joseph Defourny a été actif sous différents noms de sociétés et à différents endroits dans la région liégeoise de 1900 à 1967.
La marque A.J.D Patent a été déposée par Antoine-Joseph Defourny, 31, rue Nicolas Defrêcheux à Herstal, le 12 mai 1931.
Je trouve trace de cette carabine dans un courrier daté du 9 février 1949, (envoyé par Defourny à un armurier hutois). Rien dans les catalogues ou petits papiers divers.
GP avec l’aide de HPH et Alantrigger
Identification 3136
Here a traditional
shotgun juxtaposed system Anson with triple closing, English stick and
forearm with push rod. It comes from Manufacture liégeoise d’Armes à
feu.
Markings
Peron:
inspection since 1853
EL: provisional test since 1852
AD under star:
countermark of the controller since 1877
12C in a vertical rhombus:
gauge weapon between 1898 and 1924
PV lion on statement:
test with the smoke-free powder between 1898 and 1968
D=70 over 20.6:
length of the room in mm and diameter in mm after the optional test with the
smoke-free powder between 1892 and 1924
ELG in crowned oval:
acceptance between 1893 and 1968
P.1K518.5:
weight of the barrel, between 1892 and 1924
Lion on ECM3:
optional test with smoke-free powder EC. between 1891 and 1968
Acier universel et
Cockerill (with cock):
type of steel used
17.6 over 18.4 and 17.5
over 18.3:
chokes of the barrels, between 1910 and 1924.
J under star (maybe)
: either countermark of a controller, or unknown.
ML on star in oval under
crown: mark
MLAF deposited in 1890
One can also read on
the tape "Manufacture Liégeoise d’Armes à feu, Liège, fondée en 1866. Grand
Prix Paris 1910" (Manufacture of Liège of Firearms, Liege, founded in 1866.
Grand Prix Paris 1910).
This manufacture from
Firearms, street of Vertbois, 52-54 in Liege was registered with the
proofhouse between 1866 and 1929. It had also a barrels factory with
Nessonvaux. It deposited 26 Belgian patents between 1866 and 1898. It also
deposited 27 trademarks between 1889 and 1924.
Being given the
absence (at first sight in any case) of yearly letter, one can go back the
manufacturing between the end to 1910 and 1921.
GP
Identification 3140
A pinfire revolver of
house JB Hanquet in Liege.
One finds the
traditional ELG on star in an oval,
acceptance between 1846 and 1893.
As well as the letter
N under crown which is the mark
of the controller: valid from December 30th, 1853 to January 26th, 1877.
There is also what
seems to be a V between two rooms
of the cylinder, but the photograph is not sufficiently clear.
Company
J.B. Hanquet was registered with the proofhouse of Liege between 1796
and 1872, which corresponds perfectly to the period of manufacturing of this
revolver, around the years 1860.
It in any case
deserves certainly a cleaning to remove rust!
GP
Identification 3149
Here a shotgun
juxtaposed to external hammers, key of opening enters the hammers, barrels
out of Cockerill steel, of Belgian manufacturing, marked on locks A
Franchini in Montevideo (Uruguay), the salesman of rifle.
On the tape between
the barrels an inscription is reproduced which can result in “special for
smoke-free powders”. The manufacturing is current. Cheap engravings of a dog
and rabbits on locks.
Markings
Peron: inspection
since 1853
EL: provisional test
since 1852
16 C in rhombus: gauge
weapon, between 1898 and 1924
ELG in oval under
crown: acceptance between 1893 and 1968
CHOKE 16.5 over 16.9:
choke of the barrels, marking used between 1910 and 1924.
P 1K.371.5: weight of
the barrels, between 1892 and 1924
PV Lion on statement:
test with the powder lives between 1898 and 1968.
A and AV under star:
countermark controllers since 1877.
AG could be the
manufacturer of guns A. Garot with Herstal.
I wonder about what I
had with the start got for a Greek letter (a species of delta lying). The
yearly letters in Greek alphabet were used between 1948 and 1961, which does
not correspond to other markings. By deduction, I arrive at a manufacturing
between 1910 and 1924.
I do not identify the
letter surmounted of a star beside the EL under mention CHOKE 16.5 over
16.9.
GP
Identification 3151
Here a revolver Abadie system like marked left
side of the weapon of manufacturing of Liège. It should be a question of a
model 1878 civilian.
Markings
ELG in an oval:
acceptance between 1846 and 1893
X under star:
countermark of the controller since 1877.
Number 4010 under the
barrel, and 942 on the left side of the barrel: no explanation…
Patented Abadie
system: one will consult with interest the link according to appear on the
site:
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20s/a%20soleil%20fr.htm
who will allow to know
some a little more about the saga of certain Abadie Ismaël Issac, civil
engineer Carlier street 1 in Liege, which deposited four patents between
1874 and 1877; it sold them in Gustave Prévost which resells them in Léonard
Soleil who passes them to her son Leon who yields them to his son Louis.
One will consult also
the n° 387 of the "Gazette des armes" of the article of Henri Vuillemin on
the revolvers of the Abadie system and his many versions.
The main feature of
the Abadie system lies in the door of loading which, once lowered,
disconnects the hammer, so that while supporting on the trigger, the
cylinder turns without the hammer not moving, which allows the fast and sure
ejection casings by the rod of ejection.
This system evolved
and was taken again by other manufacturers.
To the reading of all
this literature and what one can find on the web, I concluded that it is a
civil specimen the model 1878 (the stem attached inside the left plate in
any case refer to the patent of February 11th, 1877). It would be also
interesting to know if the back part of the trigger guard is squared so as
to facilitate the catch of it to lower the aforementioned trigger guard (see
the article of Gazette des Armes).
I am not explained the
absence of marking of a manufacturer and L. Soleil in particular. There are
perhaps (undoubtedly) marks under the plates of grips.
GP
Identification 3153
Here a very traditional collapsible rifle
Leclercq system gauges of them 12 mm with opening by side lever of Belgian
manufacturing.
Markings
Peron:
inspection since 1853
R under star:
countermark of the controller since 1877
EL: provisional test since 1852
ELG in oval under crown:
acceptance between 1893 and 1968
12 m C in rhombus:
gauge weapon between 1898 and 1924
O under star:
countermark of the controller since 1877
10.4:
diameter of the barrel (?) in mm since 1889.
One sees also F.
PURNEL engraved in a rather clumsy way as well as other illegible mentions.
We cannot alas
consolidate the owner in his assertion according to which it would be about
a weapon manufactured by an ex-employee of the English company Purdey.
Hundreds of thousands
of these weapons were manufactured in a multiplicity of gauges during nearly
one century in Liege.
GP
This mark “Purnel” is
probably the name of a former owner or that of the dealer, it was an usual
practice at the time.
Identification 3155
Voici un fusil de chasse monocanon à chien extérieur de belle facture, bascule jaspée, crosse anglaise quadrillée, longuesse à poussoir, canon d’abord octogonal puis rond, marqué Galand, de fabrication liégeoise.
Les marquages
Perron : inspection depuis 1853
EL : épreuve provisoire depuis 1852
24 sur C dans un losange : calibre de l’arme entre 1898 et 1924
Lion sur PV : épreuve à la poudre sans fumée entre 1898 et 1968
T sur PV : épreuve avec une poudre particulière qui ne nous est pas connue
X sous étoile : contremarque du contrôleur depuis 1877
S sous étoile : contremarque du contrôleur depuis 1877
ELG dans ovale couronné : acceptation entre 1893 et 1968
19616 sur toutes les pièces : le numéro de l’arme
CHOKE 14.0 sur 14.7 : canon choké entre 1910 et 1924
14.6 : je ne m’explique pas la présence de ce marquage….
P OK877.6 : poids du canon entre 1892 et 1924
Galand fabricant breveté : Charles-François Galand (1832-1900) est bien connu, surtout pour ses revolvers, mais aussi pour ses fusils de chasse de bonne qualité, comme l’exemplaire examiné ici. Il a entamé ses activités en 1870 et a ouvert des succursales, à Liège et à Londres. Il avait aussi des ateliers de fabrication décentralisés à Liège (de 1870 à 1890 selon une des sources consultées) et à Birmingham. Le fusil examiné est donc un produit de l’atelier liégeois. Son fils aîné René a repris la société au décès de son père jusqu’en 1942.
Selon le marquage du choke, le fusil aurait donc été fabriqué entre 1910 et 1924, ce qui contredit certes la source faisant état de fabrications à Liège jusqu’en 1890…
L’arme correspond bien au type 16 « modèle riche » figurant dans un ancien catalogue de la maison Galand, datant environ de 1910. Seule petite réserve : le dessin est trop petit pour bien voir l’extracteur qui semble être manuel sur le fusil présenté, puisqu’il y a des stries pour faciliter la préhension.
Sources consultées : Der Neue Stockel, Eugène Heer ;
Lexique onomastique des arquebusiers … Jean-Claude Mournetas.
Merci à
HPH pour le documentIdentification 3156
Here a shotgun
juxtaposed to external hammers of Belgian manufacturing sold by house H.G.
Cords of Bremerhaven. Key of the Lefauxcheux type. Very particular system of
long strikers attached to the hammers. Behind the trigger guard a decoration
in typical horn of the Germanic weapons. Barrels in Damas or more probably
false Damas.
Markings
Peron: inspection
since 1853
ELG in oval:
acceptance between 1846 and 1893
17.0: undoubtedly the
internal diameter of the barrel, which corresponds about to a gauge 16 (in
theory 16.8)
Crowned JB: perhaps
the initial ones of the gunner or the manufacturer.
M crowned: perhaps
initial of gunner or manufacturer.
Funny of L which
resembles extremely the L of provisional punch EL of test since 1852. It
would be said that the punch was badly struck, cf also the M crowned.
House H.G. Cords of
Bremerhaven was activates between 1853 and 1920. Most weapons sold by this
firm and met on the web are of origin of Liège.
The very particular
system of long strikers attached to the hammers was not identified until
now. It makes a little think of the Albini-Braendlin system, but by far…
More probable, but not
completely some either, are patent 46934 deposited by P. Bernard in December
1878 (see drawing joint) and following 47143 (January 1879) and 48654 of
July 1878.
We do not have alas an
information relating to this P. Bernard in Saint-Gilles Liege.
Thank you with MAX for
transmitted research and documents.
GP
Identification 3158
An interesting
rifle-revolver with percussion, calibres and dimensions not communicated,
more than probably work of Charles Charlier of Wandre like say the
signature.
Along the barrel on
the left is a system of depression of the balls in the cylinder.
There is only one
punch, visible and located in any case, ELG in an oval, is acceptance
between 1846 and 1893.
According to the
drawings of the patents in our possession, the weapon could concern patent
5499 of January 30th, 1858, itself an improvement of patent 5285 of the
December 1st, 1857 bearing on a system of armament by the trigger. But
without having the weapon in the hands, it is difficult to come to a
conclusion about the use and the function of the parts located under the
barrel.
We recognize humbly
that we do not see the relationship with a system of armament by the
trigger…. That resembles rather a system of assembly and fixing of the
barrel to the frame which allows disassembling for the cleaning of the parts
after the shooting. There is thus no certainty.
Charles Charlier,
arms manufacturer with Wandre, deposited eleven patents between 1847 and
1867 and two others with other arms manufacturers (Decortis and Demeuse).
GP
Identification 3161
Here an apparently traditional semi-automatic rifle FN in .22 Long Riffles of which nearly a half-million were produced since 1914 by the Fabrique Nationale of Herstal. Apparently because, contrary by the large majority of its colleagues, it is not dismountable!
She was most probably
manufactured for the Federal Republic of Germany where the dismountable long
weapons in two or several parts without tool are not authorized. The loading
of the tube charger is done by the means of an opening on the right side of
the stock. With origin, in 1914, this opening was located in the handle,
with height of the inch.
Markings.
M under star: countermark of the controller since 1877
PV surmounted of a
stylised lion: test with the smoke-free powder between 1898 and 1968
R crowned: rifled bore between 1894 and 1968
ELG in crowned oval: test between 1893 and 1968
22 long riffle
smokeless: calibre.
F 49479: serial number of the weapon, according to the sources available (http://proofhouse.com/browning/index.html) during the year 1959. The significance of the letter F could not be given until now.
Silesia: quasi certainly the German house of importation.
Until now, we did not
find trace of this not-dismountable semi-automatic rifle on Internet, but
two sources, one German, and the other of Liège extremely related to the
Fabrique Nationale, assure us the manufacturing “in the Sixties of the
previous century” of this rifle “especially” for the Federal Republic of
Germany where the legislation prohibited the long weapons being dismounted
into two or several parts without tool.
GP
Thanks with DZ and CG.
Identification 3163
Here a shotgun to two
juxtaposed barrels, external hammers, key enters the hammers, signed A.
Janson patented in Liege on the tape. The forearm is not origin.
Markings
EL:
provisional test since 1852
Peron:
inspection since 1853
12C in
vertical rhombus: gauge weapon between 1898 and 1924
V under star:
countermark of the controller since 1877
ELG in oval
under crown: acceptance between 1893 and 1968.
AF under
crown: punch of the house Auguste Francotte, the manufacturer of
rifle
Choke 17.6
over 18.0: that means that the barrels are chokes. In use between
1910 and 1924.
JB on 7:
not identified.
41269:
undoubtedly the number of the weapon.
Signed on tape
A. Janson Patented in Liege. This Mister indeed deposited
patent 033553 in 1873 bearing on a system of closing to the weapons
undertaking by the breech, but it corresponds of nothing to the weapon in
question like you can see on the drawing joint. One can thus suppose that
the weapon was actually manufactured by the Francotte house
as a subcontractor of Auguste Janson who put his name on
the tape, by recalling that it - also - had deposited a patent “in illo
tempore”. We do not have the dates of activities of this Janson
house.
According to the
punches, one can conclude that the weapon was manufactured between 1910 and
1924.
GP
Identification 3164
Here a traditional
revolver with central percussion, six shots of gauge not communicated,
undoubtedly .380. Only characteristic: screw-swell bored which replaces the
traditional screw maintaining the barrel with the frame. The almost round
bead also leaves the ordinary one.
Markings
ELG in oval:
acceptance of 1846 to 1893.
Q under star:
undoubtedly the countermark of a controller since 1877.
The absence of the
"peron" will be noted.
3 on the barrel and the frame: undoubtedly a number of the workshop of the
founder.
There are also the
initial ones on the framework of the handle,
LP or R but they are not identified.
The initial
M.J struck the door are most
probably that of the manufacturer of which we think that it could be a
question of JAMAR, Michel, arms manufacturer in Liege, boulevard of Avroy,
16 then street Saint Jean, 26.
From 1888 to 1892, he
deposits seven patents for inventions and in particular for revolvers and a
safety applicable to several species of firearms such as revolvers with
hammers, revolvers hammerless and with various kinds of rifles. None the
patents of which we have the texts corresponds to this revolver of most
traditional whose manufacturing is in any case former to July 11th, 1893
(ELG in an oval WITHOUT crown, and absence of the R crowned for the rifled
bores introduced on January 30th, 1894).
GP
Thank you with
HPH and
GG (†)
Identification 3165
Voici une jolie carabine à percussion annulaire de calibre 6 mm bien dans le
style des armes de salon de la deuxième moitié du XIXe siècle. Belle crosse
anglaise sculptée, pontet à volutes. Elle est marquée Rissack breveté.
Les marquages
FG : initiales non répertoriées
EL : épreuve provisoire depuis 1852
5.4 : le diamètre, donc pour une cartouche de 6 mm à percussion annulaire
Deux poinçons non identifiés
231 Rissack breveté
Selon toute vraisemblance, il s’agit d’une arme relevant du brevet 020253 du
5 octobre 1866 déposé par Jean-Jacques Rissack. Cet armurier prolifique a
déposé plus de vingt brevets entre 1857 et 1869.
A signaler aussi l’article de Dirk Ziesing paru dans le bulletin 130 de juin
2015 des Amis du Musée d’Armes de Liège.
GP avec l’aide efficace et appréciée de HPH.
Identification 3168
Cette arme est un petit revolver à percussion centrale et carcasse fermée de type “PUPPY”. (Puppy = petit chien, par contradiction avec le revolver “Bulll dog” qui est plus gros).
Ce type d'arme, en fait, était fabriqué plus spécialement pour les femmes, avec une petite taille et une pochette genre porte monnaie en cuir !
Le chien est rebondissant.
Le barillet lisse est à six chambres de calibre .320 (probablement!)
Le canon rond est rayé. Il porte un guidon en demi-lune.
Les plaquettes semblent être en bakélite ou en Gutta-percha (à vérifier).
La détente est repliable dans certain modèle, protégé par une garde de détente dans d'autres ce qui est le cas de celui-ci.
Une baguette est placée sous le canon et peut-être manœuvrée sans la détacher.
L’arme porte les poinçons réglementaires du banc d’épreuves de Liège, soit :
ELG* dans un ovale vertical : acceptation définitive, en usage de 1846 à 1893.
X* : contremarques des inspecteurs, en usage de 1877 à 1893.
18 : numérotations de nature inconnue ?
Marques
Le fabricant liégeois, comme souvent, n’a laissé aucune marque permettant de l’identifier.
A.D.
Identification 3169
Here a rifle juxtaposed of very beautiful
manufacturing, signed A. Forgeron in Liege. Engraving is of Léonard Smeets.
Markings
Steel Arquebusier CAPE JF: type of steel of the barrels
manufactured by Jean Falla who had taken again processes of Henri Joseph
Cap.
12-70
in an omega lying: gauge and length of the room since 1924
Lion
on PV: test with the smoke-free powder since 1898
M and
V under star: countermarks of the controllers since 1877
1kg.226: weight of the barrel, since 1924
EL: provisional test since 1852
X: undoubtedly the yearly letter of 1945
Choke
18.4,18.5: chokes barrels, since 1924
39746: serial number of the weapon
Blacksmith typing on an anvil: registered trademark by
Alphonse Forgeron in 1902.
Alphonse Forgeron, street Adolphe Borgnet, 5 then 4, in
Liege, were registered with the proofhouse of Liege of 1880 to 1932. It
deposited two patents in Belgium, one in 1902 for a safety intended for
rifles hammerless, the other in 1910 for a shotgun to single trigger.
The mark (firm) Blacksmith was yielded to Joseph
Boulanger (Proofhouse 1932/1940) initially street Adolphe Borgnet, 5, then
street St-Léonard, 492/494 (Proofhouse 1940/1962) always in Liege. If X is
indeed the yearly letter of 1945, Joseph Boulanger is then the manufacturer
of rifle presented.
In 1963, Jacques Pirotte and then Pirotte J. & Son (E.)
street the St. Lawrence, 45 in Liege takes over the activity of the firm
Boulanger by preserving the mark “BLACKSMITH”.
As regards Steel Arquebusier, one does not find of it
the trace (until now) in publicities of the barrel maker Jean Falla. One
finds well for example - compressed steel CAP JF - or - Nickel Compound CAP
JF - etc the company Jean Falla was registered with the proofhouse of Liege
of 1931 to 1953.
The engraver Léonard Smeets was appointed engraver of
His Majesty the King in 1952 (see the heading “engravers” on the
www.littlegun.be site.
GP with the effective and appreciated assistance HPH.
Identification 3171
Here traditional a
pinfire revolver, of gauge 9 mm to be judged some by the cartridge joined,
with plates of grips in ivory, engraved, and with relatively short barrel.
It is undoubtedly about a production of the house Auguste Francotte.
Markings
F crowned on the
cylinder:
countermark of controller 1853-1877
20 on the cylinder:
undoubtedly a mark of the founder of the barrel.
A crowned on the barrel:
countermark of controller 1853-1877
Y crowned:
countermark of controller 1853-1877
ELG in an oval on the
cylinder:
punch of acceptance between 1846 and 1893.
LF:
not indexed (perhaps in keeping with Lefaucheux?).
Crowned AF:
more than probably the mark of the prolific house Auguste Francotte (see the
website littlegun.be)
653:
undoubtedly the number of the weapon.
9 KC on the casing:
mark Austrian cartridge factory Keller and C° of Vienna.
Identification 3173
Here a small revolver
of Belgian manufacturing gauges 6.35 of uneven type of them, with folding
trigger, opening “topbreak” resembling by far to a Smith & Wesson. The
squared plates of grips are maintained by a transverse screw.
Markings
R crowned:
rifled bore between 1894 and 1968
PV surmonted by a little
Lion: test
with the smoke-free powder, between 1898 and 1968
ELG in an oval under
crown:
acceptance between 1893 and 1968
J under star:
countermark of the controller between 1877 and 1968
6.35 Br:
gauge 6.35 Browning (this ammunition was born around 1906)
Under the plates: "QR"
under crown? not identified, and "LA"
for the Establishments Léonard Andre?
LLH:
could be Laurent Lochet-Habran,
house founded in 1860. It deposited three patents between 1884 and 1897 but
they have nothing to do with the revolver in question. It also deposited a
trademark in Liege in 1904.
Between the two wars,
the house was especially active in the manufacturing of barrels of quality.
GP
Identification 3174
Here a Belgian copy “cheap”
of rifle Kentucky to percussion, or Pennsylvania Long Rifle, as one produced
some a long time in Liege, sometimes like parts in kit to assemble and
finish oneself, in particular at Centaure and Raick. The firms Italian
Pedersoli and Spanish Ardesa are known for counterparts of very good
quality.
The origin of this kind of rifle would be German. It
was very popular in the American colonists in second half of the 18th
century and with the beginning of 19th.
There are only two markings:
punch ELG on star in an oval, for the barrels to be charged by the mouth since 1893,
and 11.4, the diameter of the barrel,
i.e. .45.
On the right side of the stick the “patch traditional
box is”.
GP
Identification 3175
Here a rifle SxS
hammerless system Anson quasi centenary. On the barrels one can read
Fabrique d’Armes Réunies Liège (Manufactory Joined together Liège). The fitting of the stick leaves
something to be desired so much that one can suppose that it is not the
original stick.
Markings
Peron:
punch of inspection since 1853
ELG in crowned oval:
acceptance, of application between 1893 and 1968
EL: provisional test since 1852
T under star:
countermark of the controller since 1877
PV on Lion:
test with the smoke-free powder, of application between 1898 and 1968
16 in rhombus:
indication of the gauge, application between 1898 and 1924
P 1K326.3:
weight of the barrel, application between 1892 and 1924
D 65 out of 19.00 m/m:
length of the room (65 mm) and diameter in mm after the optional test with
the smoke-free powder, of application between 1892 and 1924
HP: initial (of the gunner?) not identified
AD under star:
countermark of the controller since 1877
34555:
undoubtedly the number of the weapon
16.4 out of 17.0 choke:
barrel choke in mm to 22 cm of the breech and the mouth, of application
between 1910 and 1924.
The " Fabrique d’Armes Réunies S.A." was registered with the proofhouse of Liege of 1901 to 1920. It was
established street Charles Morren, 26-28 in Liege. It was made up in 1901 by
Albert Simonis, Antoine & Fils Bertrand, A. Riga & Co, Pirlot and Frésart
and part of Pirlot Frères. In 1920, the activity is taken over by the
F.AU.L. (Arms factory Plain of Liege, street Trapped, 22, in Liege).
The FAR deposited
thirteen patents between 1905 and 1921 for rifles, guns and revolvers.
GP
Identification 3176
Voici une très intéressante carabine-jouet Legia
d’un des membres de la dynastie Pieper, en l’occurrence Nicolas Pieper ; il
s’agit plus précisément du modèle A, datant de l’immédiat après-guerre (1
GM).
Comme il ne s’agit pas d’une arme à proprement parler, il n’y a pas de
poinçon. On trouve sur la crosse côté droit la mention Carabine Legia et un
dessin du perron liégeois (qui ressemble beaucoup à la marque pour le
pistolet Legia déposée le 22 juin 1915), côté
gauche la mention « fabrication liégeoise » entourant les initiales NP de
Nicolas Pieper qui ressemblent beaucoup (mais en plus alambiqué…) à la
marque déposée le 7 janvier 1907.
On trouve à la page 158 du livre « Bayard, les hommes, les armes et les
machines du Chevalier Pieper & Cie » de Michel Druart (dont une nouvelle
version en anglais est attendue prochainement) le contexte historique des
armes-jouets fabriquées pendant et après la Première Guerre mondiale dans le
cadre de l’opération « Panem Labore », encourageant la fabrication de
nombreux objets, notamment des armes-jouets, pour occuper les ouvriers de
l’industrie armurière « en chômage technique ».
Le mécanisme permettait de « tirer avec des amorces en papier contenant un
peu de poudre noire ou des capsules pour éteindre une lumière placée à
courte distance » (pour tous les modèles). Tous ces jouets – sauf le Modèle
A – tiraient aussi des petits projectiles (appelés Numéro 3).
La carabine-jouet Modèle A en question relève du brevet de perfectionnement
273370 du 18 avril 1918 s’appliquant au brevet principal 270792 du 24
décembre 1915.
On la retrouve sur la page d’un catalogue de 1919 reproduite ci-dessous.
Deux remarques : le pontet n’est pas d’origine mais vient d’une arme plus
ancienne, peut-être hollandaise.
Je me pose aussi des questions sur la nature et l’emploi de la pièce située
près de l’attache inférieure de bretelle et qu’on ne voit pas sur la page du
catalogue. Elle me fait penser à la tige extractrice qu’on trouve sur les
carabines semi-automatiques Bayard 1912. Mais il faudrait la dévisser de la
crosse pour en savoir plus.
Il s’agit en tout cas d’une pièce très rare, quasi centenaire, en très bon
état, qui a résisté non seulement aux outrages du temps, mais aussi et
surtout à ceux des jeux d’enfant(s) !
GP avec l’aide efficace et très appréciée de PHL et MD.
La marque NP a été déposée le 21 avril 1906 alors que Nicolas Pieper était
toujours renseigné Rue Hayeneux 64 à Herstal.
La marque Legia Pistol a été déposée le 22 juin 1915, quand Nicolas était
renseigné Rue Bonne Nouvelle 5 à Liège, par contre, je ne trouve pas trace
d'un dépôt de marque pour le logo carabine Legia.
Une partie des infos se trouvent dans ma collection, une autre dans
l'excellent livre de Michel p. 176
P-H
Le "NP alambiqué" me semble très proche de celui de la plaquette de
pistolet, modèle déposé en 1907. Je ne vois rien d’autre dans ses marques
déposées (en annexe si vous ne les avez pas).
Pour la marque Legia, ne s’est-il pas contenté de reprendre la marque
déposée en 1915 pour un pistolet automatique ? Il reste pas mal d’inexpliqué
dans l’histoire de Nicolas…
M(ichel) D.
Identification 3178
Voici un revolver à percussion de calibre un peu supérieur à 7 mm, que des
collègues qui ont de meilleurs yeux que moi attribuent à Pierre-Joseph
Fagard de Saint-Rémy ; ce dernier a déposé trois brevets entre 1855 et 1857.
En effet l'inscription "P......... Breveté"
pourrait être " Pierre Fagard
breveté".
Mais le revolver en question ne correspond à aucun de ces brevets, du fait
de l’absence de bras de chargement côté droit. De sorte qu’on ne peut être
tout à fait affirmatif.
Il n’y a pas de poinçon, seulement le numéro 888 à deux endroits, et un 1.
On voit aussi les initiales NC qui pourraient être attribuées à N. Courard,
mais là aussi sans garantie aucune.
GP avec l’aide de PHL et HPH
Identification 3179
Here a rifle with percussion with back lock leaving the
workshops of Joseph Lemille in Liege.
Markings :
ELG on
star in an oval: acceptance between 1818 and 1893.
Crowned JL: undoubtedly the initial ones of
Joseph Lemille. They are also reproduced on other weapons of the same
manufacturer. See the
www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20l/a%20lemille%20fr.htm
site
It had been interesting to dismount the weapon to see
whether there are punches under the gun. It is quasi certainly the case.
The other punches are undoubtedly those of military
controllers.
I do not manage to decipher the marking of the stick.
Do I believe to distinguish a L, for Lemille?
The weapon resembles French rifle much model 1842, but
in the absence of numerical data, of the gauge, rifled bore or smooth, etc,
it is difficult to say some more.
Joseph Lemille was registered with the proofhouse of
Liege of 1836 to 1874. He lived of 1811 to 1882.
He was the son of a soldier of the Empire which
remained in Liege.
He deposited three patents but they have nothing to do
with the weapon in question. He is especially known to have been one of the
founder members of the Museum of Weapons of Liege by bequeathing at the end
of his life at the City the hotel of Hayme de Bomal, quay of Maestricht,
which became the MAL (Musée d'armes de Liège). Its widow also bequeathed
some 500 weapons which are always preserved by the museum.
GP
with GG (†) and PHL
Identification 3181
Here a revolver style
“bull dog” of Belgian manufacturing whose gauge was not communicated to us.
It could be in 6 mm Vélodog to judge some by the length of the cylinder, but
the diameter of the rooms and the barrel seems higher to us than 6 mm, so
that one can also think of another cartridge like the 7.62 Nagant. Safety
known as “German” (superfluous) on the left side. Stem of ejection
swivelling in line with cylinder, squared plates connected by a transverse
screw and its rivet washers.
Markings
PV on Lion:
test with the smoke-free powder, of application between 1898 and 1968.
ELG in oval under crown:
punch of acceptance, application between 1893 and 1968
R crowned:
rifled bore, of application between 1894 and 1968
Y under star:
countermark of the controller, application between 1877 and 1968.
2568:
undoubtedly the number of the weapon.
Patented JFM:
undoubtedly the initial ones of the manufacturer who could be
Jacques François Martin. One
finds them on another revolver evoked on the site Littlegun
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20ma/a%20martin%20jacques%20francois%20fr.htm
It was active in
Dalhem around 1866 then in Liege around 1884-1885, but we do not know until
which year. It deposited patents concerning of the mechanisms of revolver
but they do not correspond to the weapon presented. It is consequently
necessary to take the mention “Patented” either like “patentee of arms
manufacturer”, or like anybody having deposited patents. And not in the
direction of a weapon concerned with a quite precise patent.
It is a very current
weapon of which one manufactured thousands of specimens (often cheap) in
various gauges until before 1933 (coming into effect in Belgium of a more
restrictive legislation as regards detention of weapons). As it goes back to
after 1898 and that one does not know when JF Martin did stop his
activities, one - (light?)- doubt remains in attribution.
GP
with the appreciated assistance of PHL and GG
†
Identification 3182
Voici un très classique fusil de chasse juxtaposé de type Anson, de
fabrication liégeoise. Clé d’ouverture « top lever ». Longuesse à poussoir,
crosse anglaise.
Les marquages
EL en lettres cursives : épreuve provisoire en vigueur
depuis 1852
Perron : inspection, en vigueur entre depuis 1853
12 C dans losange : calibre du fusil, en usage entre 1898
et 1924
L sous étoile, M sous étoile, AE sous étoile : contremarque
du contrôleur, en vigueur entre 1877 et 1968
39166 : sans doute le numéro de l’arme
Lion sur PV : épreuve à la poudre vive, en vigueur entre
1898 et 1968
P 1k296.4 : poids du canon, en vigueur entre 1892 et 1924
Acier Cockerill : type de l’acier utilisé pour les canons
ELG dans ovale sous couronne : acceptation, en vigueur
entre 1893 et 1968
D 70 m sur 20,6 : longueur de la chambre (70 mm) et
diamètre en mm après épreuve facultative à la poudre vive, en vigueur de
1892 et 1924
Choke 17,2 sur 18,5 et 17,7 sur 18,3 : canons chokés, en
vigueur entre 1910 et 1924.
LN ou M : peut-être les lettres du canonnier, non
identifiées jusqu’à présent.
On peut donc conclure que l’arme a été fabriquée entre 1910 et 1924.
GP
La manufacture d'armes Lepage signait toutes ses armes, celle-ci n'étant pas signée il est peu probable qu'elle soit de cette manufacture !!
AD (Webmaster)
Identification 3183
Markings
ELG on star in oval:
acceptance between 1846 and 1893
V crowned (twice):
countermark of the controller between 1853 and 1877.
NF:
the founder? It cannot in any case be question of Neuprez Frères of Herstal
which manufactured barrels around 1924.
Jean Mathieu Deprez
of Wandre deposited seven patents between 1857 and 1867, including 014026 of
March 4th, 1863 for a mode of closing of the "pistol revolvers" which is
that of this machine.
This weapon was thus
manufactured between 1863 and 1877.
GP
Identification 3184
Here a revolver with
six shots, of military style, gauge 9,1mm (perhaps one .380) resulting from
association A. Simonis, J. Jansen and
Dumoulin Frères (Brothers) & Co. It comprises left side a swivelling
door giving access to the mechanism as one finds of them several
alternatives in this end of 19th century. Door of loading on the right, rod
of ejection in the style of the lawful revolver French 1873
Chamelot-Delvigne.
Markings
ELG on star in oval:
acceptance between 1846 and July 11th, 1893
Z under star:
countermark of the controller between 1877 and 1968.
S J & D:
association Simonis, Jansen and Dumoulin
The working life of
association S J & D is not known
for us. It deposited eight patents between 1883 and 1886, but none relates
to a revolver. It also deposited several trademarks (until November 1889).
See on the site littlegun:
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20s/a%20simonis%20janssen%20and%20dumoulin%20fr.htm
Albert Simonis
was registered with the proofhouse of Liege of 1873 to 1900. He deposited 19
patents, but none relates to this revolver.
Dumoulin Frères
was registered with the proofhouse of Liege of 1877 to 1894. They deposited
six patents of 1879 to 1890 but none relates to this revolver.
We do not know which
of Jansen in Liege belonged to
association: undoubtedly Joseph,
but its working life seems to start in 1894.
The weapon is thus in
any case former to July 11th, 1893.
GP
Identification 3187
Here a traditional
shotgun juxtaposed with external hammers, key of opening Top lever, forearm
with push rod, stick semi-pistol with cheek.
Markings
ELG on star in oval under
crown:
acceptance between 1893 and 1968
Lion on PV:
test with the smoke-free powder, between 1898 and 1968
Peron:
inspection, since 1853
X and S under star:
countermarks of controllers, since 1877
57869:
undoubtedly the number of the weapon
P: could be the initial one of
Pirard, gunner, but without guarantee none.
20 on C in a rhombus:
gauge weapon, between 1898 and 1924
EL: provisional test since 1852
Choke 14.8 over 15.5:
chokes barrels, between 1910 and 1924
P OK989.2:
weight of the barrel which can draw from the smoke-free powders, between
1892 and 1924
D= 65 mm over 17.7:
length of the room in mm, and diameter in mm after the optional test with
the smoke-free powder, of application between 1892 and 1924.
JW: initial not identified.
Star with five branches
with a crown in the medium and letters JRB: one of the registered trademarks by the
Manufactory Jean-Baptiste Rongé Fils SA, place Midsummer's Day 4 in
Liege, then place Xavier Neujean by change of denomination. It was founded
in 1789. It was registered with the proofhouse of Liege of 1832 to 1929. It
deposited several patents between 1894 and 1929, and several trademarks
between 1894 and 1897.
The activities were
taken over by company ARMAF in
1929.
One can thus conclude
that the weapon was manufactured between 1910 and 1924.
GP with the appreciated assistance of PHL
Identification 3189
Here a beautiful
shotgun juxtaposed to key top lever, stick semi-pistol with cheek, forearm
with push rod and indicators of armament of the strikers, marked on the
engraving of the rocker “Francotte Original”.
Markings
HJA:
undoubtedly the initial ones of a preceding owner.
Fluss Stahl:
type of steel.
Lion on PV:
test with the smoke-free powder, of 1898 to 1968
12-70 in an omega:
gauge nominal and length of the casing, 1924 to our days
JF: initial of the manufacturer
of barrels Jean Falla
18.5 choke 18.4:
chokes barrels, between 1924 and 1968
Crowned AF:
one of the marks of the house Auguste Francotte
1kg 278:
weight of the barrel, since 1924 until our days
P: undoubtedly the yearly letter of 1937
U under star:
countermark of the controller between 1877 and 1968
ELG on star in crowned
oval:
acceptance between 1893 and 1968.
The weapon was thus
manufactured between 1924 and 1968 and more than probably in 1937.
We did not find until now which is the inventor of the indicators of armament of the strikers. It is not Auguste Francotte or one of his descendants/successors, according to the analysis of the patents of this famous house inhabitant of Liège in our possession (but we do not certainly have them all). Research continues.
GP
Identification 3192
Pistolet Bijou dont la marque a été déposée par Alexandre Dupont ; en
réalité un pistolet conçu par August Menz (Suhl).
Voici un pistolet en calibre 6,35 mm, relevant du brevet de culasse pour
pistolets automatiques déposé en Belgique sous le numéro 325664 le 23 avril
1925 par August Menz de Suhl ; le même brevet avait été déposé en Allemagne
le 2 octobre 1924.
Les marquages :
Bijou Bté 325664 Liège Belgique : le numéro du brevet (déposé en Allemagne)
6,35 Br : le calibre 6,35 Browning
Lion sur PV : épreuve à la poudre sans fumée entre 1898 et 1968
K sous étoile : contremarque du contrôleur depuis 1877
ELG sur étoile dans ovale couronné : acceptation entre 1893 et 1968
Bijou : marque commerciale déposée par Alexandre Dupont, rue de la Province
19 à Liège le 31 mai 1928 sous le numéro 3722. Il a été inscrit au Banc
d’Epreuves de Liège entre 1923 et 1961. La société est alors devenue la
Maison Dupont A. à la même adresse, inscrite au BE de 1962 à 1970.
En fait, ce pistolet fabriqué en Belgique est similaire à un pistolet en
6,35 Br. d’August Menz, appelé Liliput modèle 1926, ainsi qu’il ressort de
la photo jointe. August Menz avait également déposé la marque commerciale
Bijou en Allemagne.
GP avec l’aide efficace et appréciée de HPH, MD et MAX
Identification 3193
Here a school rifle of
the type “La Française mod. 21”
as one can read it on the wood.
These rifles were very
popular at the end of the 19th century, and still after the First World War.
They were intended for the school battalions and the shooting clubs
(gathered within the Union of the Shooting clubs of France created in 1886).
They are generally
inspired by the silhouette of Lebel, with a bolt right or bent like here.
Their calibre is usually the 6 mm Flobert like models it presented for the
shooting to 10-12 m. On request, one could also have a version with a more
powerful ammunition to draw with 150-200 m. It would be necessary to examine
the rise of the model presented to determine the type.
These school rifles
were produced by about twenty manufacturers.
There was also a
former model, of 1894.
The repertoire of
French arms manufacture Jarlier-Buigné mentions Micheron in Blois in 1931
and Micheron with Mâcon around 1931-1964.
GP with the assistance
of PHL and MD
Identification 3194
Here a very
traditional revolver of Belgian manufacturing, calibre and number of rooms
not communicated, with side safety on the left known as German, door of
loading on the right and rod swivelling of ejection maintained in line with
cylinder.
Markings
Belgium on the barrel:
to be sure that it is a Belgian production…
R crowned:
punch for the rifled bores, between 1894 and 1968
S under star:
countermark of the controller between 1877 and 1968
L under crown:
not identified, perhaps the founder of the barrel
ELG on star in crowned
oval:
acceptance between 1893 and 1968
JFM Bté:
it is perhaps about Jacques François Martin of Dalhem (1866) then established in Liege
street Gérardrie 31, around 1884-1885. As an indication: It deposited three
patents between these dates, but none relates to the weapon in question. We
write “perhaps” since according to the current data, it was active between
1866 and 1885. However, the revolver was as soon as possible manufactured
between 1894. Admittedly, one does not prevent the other…
GP with the assistance
of MD
Identification 3197
Voici un pistolet semi-automatique de Nicolas
Pieper, plus précisément le Mod D démontant de 1909, en calibre 6,35 Br.
Les marquages
Pistolet automatique N. Pieper Bté SGDG voir
plus bas
Lion sur PV : épreuve à la poudre sans fumée
entre 1898 et 1968
Perron : inspection depuis 1853
A surmonté de la barre horizontale de T
majuscule : non identifié
ARICO : marque commerciale non déposée
Pour ce qui est de Nicolas Pieper, je n’ai rien
à ajouter à ce qu’ont écrit avant moi Michel Druart dans son livre sur
« Pieper & Cie, les hommes, les armes et les machines du Chevalier Bayard »,
et Guy Gadisseur
(†)
qui a rédigé un résumé pour littlegun.be
Le voici
Né à Liège le 31 octobre 1870. Second
fils d’Henri Pieper et de Catherine Elisabeth Leroy.
Dès l’âge de treize ans il entame son
apprentissage auprès de son père. Peu avant le décès de celui-ci il prend la
direction de l’usine de la rue des Bayards tandis que celle de Nessonvaux
échoit à son frère Edouard Herman (Armand). En quelques années, la
diversification excessive des activités de l’entreprise mène celle-ci au
bord de la faillite et entraîne sa liquidation ainsi que l’éviction des deux
frères Pieper en août 1905. (voir Ets Pieper). Nicolas se voit contraint de
monter sa propre affaire, qui deviendra la Fabrique d’armes automatiques
Nicolas Pieper. Pour cela il bénéficiera du soutien de son beau-frère ,
Auguste Lambrecht, fabricant de pièces estampées, qui mettra des locaux, de
taille modeste, à sa disposition au 42 puis au 5-7 rue Bonne Nouvelle à
Liège.
Nicolas achètera plusieurs brevets
couvrant des pistolets automatiques à un armurier liégeois, Jean Warnant. Il
y apportera des améliorations et produira plusieurs modèles baptisés
« Démontant » et « Basculant ». Ce dernier, appelé aussi modèle 1909 sera
fabriqué sous licence par la Waffenfabrik Steyr en Autriche, jusqu’aux
années 30.
Parallèlement, Nicolas Pieper poursuivra
la fabrication de fusils de chasse de divers types, inspirés des brevets de
son père.
La Première guerre mondiale freinera
considérablement ses activités qui seront réduites à la création
d’armes-jouets d’excellente qualité.
Après 1918, il s’installera au 292 de la
rue Vivegnis. Il fera l’acquisition du brevet d’un armurier nommé Hippolyte
Thonon concernant un pistolet de poche semi-automatique. Celui-ci, une copie
du FN Browning 1906, sera fabriqué sous le nom de pistolet Légia,
peut-être dans un atelier ouvert à Paris par Nicolas Pieper en 1922.
Après 1923, on ne trouve plus trace de
ses activités armurières. Il décédera à Liège dix ans plus tard en 1933 dans
la maison familiale de la rue des Bayards.
Production armurière
Fusil de chasse doubles à chiens
extérieurs et Hammerless à canons lisses ; Pistolets automatiques de type
Démontant et Basculant (modèles A,B,C,A.D. et D) ; pistolet automatique
Légia ; carabine type 500 et 501 semi-automatiques ; carabines type 504 et
505 à verrou ; carabine de tir à devant coulissant.
Armes jouets de différents types :
imitation Mauser 1889 à amorces, fusils de chasse en miniature.
Alarme de porte à détonation.
Brevets déposés en Belgique
45 au total de 1899 à 1923 concernant
les pistolets automatiques, les carabines de petit calibre, les fusils de
chasse, les armes jouets, combinaison de sabre et de pistolet, etc.
Marques de fabrique belges
N et P entrelacés (21 avril 1906).
Pistolet automatique Pieper ; Pieper’s
Automatic Pistol : Pistolet Pieper ; Pieper’s Pistol (juillet 1906).
Une plaquette de pistolet avec N et P
entrelacés (7 janvier 1907).
Illustration Pistolet Nicolas PIEPER (11
décembre 1907).
N.PIEPER’S PATENT (29 février 1908).
Carabine Pieper ; Automatic Rifle
Pieper’s Patent ; Pieper’s Automatic Rifle ; Rifle Pieper’s Patent ;
Carabine automatique Pieper ; Pieper’s Rifle (15 février 1909)
Nicolas Pieper Centaure (avec centaure)
(4 février 1913)
Légia Pistol (22 juin 1915)
Nicolas Pieper a été inscrit au Banc
d’épreuves de Liège entre 1906 et 1927.
GP, MD, GG (†) et PHL
Identification 3198
Here a revolver
pinfire marked “Brevetés Comblain” on the one hand and Arendt on the other
hand, without trigger guard, with folding trigger and rod placed along the
framework of which a part, with right angle of the rod, is also used to
prevent the cartridges from falling from the cylinder. It is damage which
one does not have of photograph of this species of door preventing the
cartridges from falling.
Markings
ELG on star in an
oval: acceptance between 1846 and 1893
V crowned: countermark
of the controller between 1853 and 1877
This kind of revolver
with rod/door was already the object of a note on the site littlegun.be
www.littlegun.be/ma_collection/belgique/be%20klmno/a%20be%20mangeot%20et%20comblain%20fr.htm
It seems to correspond
to patent 8182 of 1859.
It is not the first
time that it is given to us to see marking “patented Comblain” on a revolver
with the same system of rod also which serves as door. It resembles very
extremely the punch which used between 1854 and 1861 Mangeot-Comblain
association for their many alternatives of revolvers with percussion (from
where the mention “patented” in the plural), punch which appears in the note
evoked above. Do we suppose that Comblain, after the end of association,
continued - by avarice? - to use the punch but by taking care to strike some
that the lower part the edge of the framework of its revolvers produced
after 1861 or by modifying (= filing) the punch.
As for Arendt, it is
quasi certainly about Maurice Arendt, registered gunmaker with the
proofhouse of Liege between 1857 and 1889, which deposited about ten patents
between 1864 and 1885. Undoubtedly he also worked for Hubert Comblain when
this last was more devoted to its rifles with falling block.
GP
Identification 3199
Voici un fusil de chasse à canons juxtaposés, chiens extérieurs pour
percussion centrale, fermeture clé sur le pontet, crosse française sculptée.
Avec une mention « FR Navarro » sur la platine arrière droite, « Commandé »
sur la platine gauche, et une mention « Canons Bernard Liège » sur la bande
entre les canons.
Les marquages
S sous étoile : contremarque du contrôleur entre 1877 et 1968
Perron : inspection depuis 1853
ELG sur étoile dans ovale : acceptation entre 1846 et 1893
EL : épreuve provisoire depuis 1852
16 : pourrait être le calibre ;
JG : non identifié ; on pourrait penser au canonnier Jean Gilles Delcour
mais ses initiales sont JGD.
Il y a aussi d’autres marques mais indéchiffrables et non identifiables
La mention Commandé FR (ou s’agit-il de « par ») Navarro n’a pas été
identifiée.
La mention « Canons Bernard Liège » est fort sujette à caution, dans la
mesure où les canons Bernard sont de très bonne qualité et aussi signés sur
la table sous les canons.
GP
Identification 3200
Here a pinfire rifle
of good condition, signed Broqua with Auchs (sic), whose barrels in Damas
are signed E. Bernard gunner, with punches of Liège.
Markings
ELG on star in oval:
acceptance between 1846 and 1893
EL: provisional test
since 1852
H under star:
countermark of the controller of 1877 to 1968
Peron: inspection
since 1853
17.0: gauge in mm
(either a gauge 16)
LD under crown: not
identified
EB under crown in
oval: undoubtedly the mark of Henri-Eugene Bernard, deposited in 1862.
Henri-Eugene Bernard
was active since 1840 and it thus deposited a mark on January 18th, 1862
(according to Jarlier-Buigné). See also the site littlegun.be under this
name.
Always according to
Jarlier-Buigné, the Broqua arms manufacturer in Auchs (sic, insofar as one
writes the name of this city of Gers without “S”, even if the natives
attached to their language pronounce it…) was active in 1900. However, this
pin rifle is former to this date since going back at the latest to 1893.
GP
Identification 3201
Voici un classique fusil de chasse juxtaposé hammerless fabriqué à Liège
pour l’exportation vers les Etats-Unis. L’arme a en effet été vendue par la
maison William Read & Sons de Boston, spécialisée dans les articles de sport
et les armes pendant près d’un siècle. Du coup, il présente non seulement
des marquages belges, mais aussi américains.
Les marquages
BELGIUM : indication que l’arme est destinée à l’exportation
EL : épreuve provisoire depuis 1852
12C dans un losange : calibre entre 1898 et 1924
D 65 mm sur 20.6 : longueur de la chambre et diamètre en mm après l’épreuve
facultative à la poudre vive de 1892 à 1924
S et X et R sous étoile : contremarques de contrôleurs depuis 1877
Perron : inspection depuis 1853
ELG sur étoile dans ovale sous couronne : acceptation entre 1893 et 1968
Choke 17.5 sur 18.4 : canons chokés entre 1910 et 1924
JD : pourraient être les initiales de Jean Duchateau, mais lequel ? Nous
avons connaissance d’un Jean Duchateau rue DD Salme à Liège, sans indication
de dates d’activités. Mais il y a aussi un homonyme inscrit au BE de 1923 à
1925, rue Fush 28 à Liège. Il s’est associé de 1925
à 1936 avec Jules Thonon. Le reste de son histoire sort du cadre de
cette identification.
P 1k711 : poids du canon depuis 1924 pour des canons pouvant tirer des
poudres sans fumée
Sur la bande Krupp Steel William Read & Sons Boston : le type d’acier
utilisé et le nom du vendeur de l’arme aux Etats-Unis.
3.3 grs powder et 1 1sur 8 OZ shot : soit une traduction des épreuves
belges, soit une nouvelle épreuve aux Etats-Unis.
Il y a donc trois « problèmes » puisque le marquage du choke est celui
utilisé jusqu’en 1924, tandis que le poids du canon est exprimé selon la
version postérieure à 1924. De plus, la mention de la longueur de la chambre
et du diamètre en mm après l’épreuve facultative à la poudre vive est aussi
celle utilisée jusqu’en 1924.
Enfin, je ne vois nulle part le poinçon du lion sur PV indiquant une épreuve
à la poudre vive, d’usage entre 1898 et 1968.
Je suppose que l’axe pourvu d’une flèche dorée qui s’aligne sur une autre
flèche dorée sur la platine est un indicateur d’armé.
La société William Read and Sons de Boston a exercé des activités de ventes
d’articles de sport et d’armes depuis 1826 jusque pendant la 1e
Guerre mondiale.
GP
Identification 3204
Here a shotgun
juxtaposed to external hammers, key of opening Top lever between the
hammers, stick semi-pistol and with cheek, of Belgian manufacturing.
Markings
Peron:
inspection since 1853
EL: provisional test since 1852
16 C in vertical rhombus:
gauge between 1898 and 1924
TV 16:
not identified.
SPI:
punch undoubtedly of François Dumoulin (located in 1899) or of the
Syndicat des Pièces
Interchangeables
(Trade union of the Interchangeable Parts).
ELG on star in crowned
oval:
acceptance between 1893 and 1968
CHOKE 16.9:
choke barrel, between 1898 and 1910
K under star:
countermark of the controller between 1877 and 1968
P reversed under star:
undoubtedly a countermark of controller.
According to “Who's
who arms manufacture of Liège” which allots
SPI to François Dumoulin,
this last was registered with the proofhouse of Liege between 1894 and 1908
as a gunmaker, Boulevard of Sauvenière 102 in Liege in 1894, then street the
St. Lawrence 99 in Liege in 1898. He is then manager and associated firm
Dumoulin François & Co, street
Thier of Fountain 2 in Liege. This company was registered with the
proofhouse of Liege of 1908 to 1968. In 1968, the activity was taken over by
the Establishments Georges Laloux.
There is still another
possible attribution, namely with the
Syndicat des Pièces Interchangeables
(Trade union of the Interchangeable Parts), credit of 1899 to 1946,
consisted Neumann Frères, Jansen and
Fils and Dumoulin Fils & C°. This grouping received parts coming from
the National Factory of Weapons of
war (FN) and the weapons were assembled and finished by the three
associated firms.
There would exist
three marks then: SPI,
SPI in a rectangle (mentioned in
Which is which arms manufacture liégeoisei, and
SPI in a circle (mentioned in
volume 6 to appear LIEGE GUNMAKERS of Alain Daubresse).
GP
See here to details
about these books :
http://www.littlegun.be/livres/a%20a%20livre%20alain%20general.htm
Identification 3206
Here a beautiful
shotgun SXS with locks of the house Louis Christophe of Brussels. Engraving
is signed M. Hannay.
The house Louis
Christophe was well-known in Brussels until the beginning of the years 1970.
Located Gallery of the Queen, it is related to Henri Mangeot, then in Joseph
Montigny.
M. Hannay is an
engraver of Liège which one finds the trace street of Kinkempois with
Angleur in 1929. He is mentioned in the 1933.1935 and 1938 old directory at
another address, street saint Paul, 39. In the directory of 1944, it is
always with the same address but as a grocer (one can suppose that it had
“to be recycled” during the 2nd GM…). It does not appear any more in the
directory of 1953.
GP with the very
appreciated assistance of PHL.
Identification 3207
Here a traditional juxtaposed rifle of the FN. The
weapon passed by two proofhouses.
Belgian markings
ELG on
star in crowned oval: acceptance between 1893 and 1968
12 C
in vertical rhombus: gauge between 1898 and 1924
Peron: inspection since 1853
Lion
on PV: test with the smoke-free powder between 1898 and 1968
R
under star: countermark of a controller since 1877
P 1
kg???.4: weight of the barrel between 1892 and 1924
D 65
mm over 20.6: length of the room and diameter in mm after the
optional test with the smoke-free powder between 1892 and 1924
English markings (provided)
R under crown: new test in England for a foreign weapon
BNP: punch of Birmingham since February 1st, 1955
12x65: gauges and length of the room? It is neither a
Belgian punch nor an English punch…
18.2: undoubtedly the diameter in mm.
850 BAR: undoubtedly pressure
I see also two swords crossed with letters: that
resembles by far the old English punches of before 1904…
Consequently, I can say that, according to the Belgian
punches, the weapon was manufactured with the FN between 1898 and 1924 and
even before 1922 being given the absence of yearly letter (practical started
in 1922).
It was undoubtedly exported in England and was
represented with the proofhouse of Birmingham after 1955. But I am not
explained the 12x65, I want to say the length of the casing expressed in mm
and not in inches… Unless there was a passage in a third proofhouse ?
GP
Identification 3208
Here a semi-automatic
pistol of pocket, probably gauges some 6.35, manufactured by the house
Auguste Francotte, on a patent deposited in 1913 by Emile Hermann (who,
curiously, does not appear in “Who's who arms manufacture of Liège) and
Charles Parent (registered with proofhouse of Liège 1912).
Markings
A Francotte à Liege:
very well known house activates of 1810 to 1991 in Liege
Patent 19141: mystery,
because it does not appear (and due, to see further) among the very many
patents deposited by the house Auguste Francotte.
626: undoubtedly the
number of the weapon?
In fact, and thanks to
the searchs for MAX, it Appert that this gun was designed per MM Emile
Hermann and Charles Parent, who deposited on June 19th, 1913 patent 257794
referring to the pistol in question. The house Auguste Francotte is thus the
manufacturer, but not the inventor. It also designed a gun of pocket around
1912, but it is not the gun under review.
Let us note that Emile
Hermann had already deposited a patent for a small gun in 1910 under number
224179, but it does not have any relationship with this one.
Also let us raise that
A.B. Zhuk announces also the existence of a pistol Hermann (n° 1451, page
182), but it has any relationship neither with the patent of 1910, nor with
that under review.
GP with the
effective assistance of MAX
Identification 3210
Here a
revolver of average quality to five shots of gauge not communicated, copy of
models Colt, rigged out of registered trademarks by Charles Clément in 1893.
Markings
ELG on
star in oval under crown: acceptance enters on July 11th, 1893 and on February
26th, 1968
F
under star: countermark of the controller between 1877 and 1968
The
White House: registered trademark by Charles Clément on June 21st, 1893
The
Washington 38: registered trademark by Charles Clément on June 21st, 1893
Provided being given the quality of the photograph: C Clemen (T) S Arms
Manufacturers
They
are by way of a copy Colt revolvers, either the Colt New Line manufactured
between 1873 and 1884, or the Colt New Police COP & Thug (also called House
Pistol and New Line Police) manufactured between 1882 and 1886.
Charles Clément was registered with the proofhouse of Liege of 1906 to 1914. He
deposited of 1883 until his death not less than 35 patents for revolvers, guns
and rifles, and 14 trademarks between 1893 and 1912.
The CT
on the plate of stick always asks question: CT for ClemenT?
GP with the assistance of PHL, MD and RD
Identification 3213
Here a
beautiful rifle with juxtaposed barrels, stick pistol and forearm with push rod,
manufactured in 1928 (yearly letter G).
Markings
R
crowned: rifled bores, between 1894 and 1968
G:
yearly letter for 1928
p
under asterisk: countermark of the controller since 1877
PV on
lion: test with the smoke-free powder, between 1898 and 1968
ELG on
asterisk in crowned oval: acceptance between 1893 and 1968
Peron:
inspection since 1853
Crowned JF: should be the gunner Jean Falla but according to the sources of
which I lay out, it was active starting from 1931.
Acier martelé (Hammered steel): type of steel used
.450/400 express 3 ¼ balle blindée
(if I read well because one struck another thing “armor-plated” which I cannot
decipher): gauge rifle, a long cartridge with pad whose average dimensions are
10.3 of diameter and 83 mm length, appeared in 1880 according to Bernard Meyer.
A very popular gauge until the appearance of the 375 magnum.
10.1:
should be the diameter of the barrel in mm
EL:
provisional test since 1852
T
under asterisk: countermark of the controller since 1877
Mark
EB: Braekers establishments deposited on July 7th, 1927
JAMIN:
“who's who arms manufacture of Liège” mentions Jamin Marcel, arms manufacturer
quay Saint-Léonard 41 in Liege, registered with the proofhouse between 1910 and
1933.
EB
interlaced in a double ellipse: registered trademark on July 7th, 1927 by the
Establishments Braekers SA, (BE of 1921 to 1935). Charles Braekers deposited
before and after the 1GM about fifteen patents, mainly for the shotguns.
One
can think that it is about a rifle manufactured by Braekers and sold by Jamin.
But without certainty.
GP with the appreciated assistance of PHL and HPH
Identification 3217
Here a
beautiful rifle juxtaposed with external hammers, forearm with push rod, squared
"pistol" handle, lever enters the hammers, barrels more than probably to Damas,
marked Lepage in Liege. Locks and trigger guard are nicely engraved in
particular with animals.
Markings
ELG on asterisk in crowned
rhombus:
acceptance between 1893 and 1968
12 on C in rhombus:
gauge of 1898 to 1924
Peron:
inspection since 1853
LC: quasi certainly the initial ones of Lucien Clement, gunner with
Nessonvaux
EL: provisional test since 1852
G under asterisk:
countermark of the controller between 1877 and 1968
I am a
little astonished not to see a photograph(s) weight of the barrel (marking
introduces in 1892), of possible the chokes, length of the room (marking
introduces in 1892) since the weapon is after 1898. In the same way, I am a
little astonished to see such a rifle of beautiful invoice being with black
powder after 1898… But which am I…
Finally and especially, I lose myself in the history of the Lepage arms
manufacturer: if I read well “Who's who arms manufacture of Liège, the
“Manufactory Lepage” was activates of 1919 to 1961. This rifle former to this
period since is thus marked “simply” Lepage in Liege. However, according to
publicity appearing on page 163 of “Who's who”, the company exists since 1790.
But how it signed its production being given all the associations and recoveries
largely evoked in “Who's who”...
In
short, still much of questions…
GP
Identification 3218
Here a beautiful juxtaposed lock rifle manufactured by
the firm Auguste Francotte for the Hungarian arms manufacturer Josz.
Kirner in Budapest, taken
again in 1905 by Johan Pirk. Pretty engravings.
Markings
Peron: inspection since 1853
EL: provisional test since 1852
12 on
C in rhombus: gauge of 1898 to 1924
ELG on
asterisk in crowned oval: acceptance between 1893 and 1968
A badly struck marking of a
tree surrounded by the letters A and F:
one of the many marks of the house Auguste Francotte.
AB
under asterisk: countermark of the controller of 1877 to 1968
Choke
17.6 (?) over 18.0: chokes barrels, of use between 1910 and 1924.
I do not see marking for the length of the room and the diameter in mm. In
theory of use of 1892 to 1924.
Budapesten Kirner Josz: see low
Utoda Pirk J: successor Pirk J.
There is also a marking for the type of steel used for
the guns, but I can decipher only Martin Steel.
Perhaps is this “Siemens
Martin Steel”. It surrounds
crowned
letters AF: one of the many marks of the
house Auguste Francotte.
The dynasty Hungarian arms manufacturer Kirner goes
back to Georg Kirner (1781-1847), originating in Bavaria, bench with Ofen then
with Pest (one of the two cities having constituted Budapest).
He succeeded his son Josef (1809-1869), credit between
1832 and 1861.
The son of this last was called also Josef (1838-1916).
He was arquebusier of the Court.
He sold his company in 1905 to Johann Pirk
(o).
There exist many publicities of this Kirner house, just
as of the shotguns of top quality.
GP with the effective and appreciated assistance PHL.
Identification 3222
Here a
boxlock flint pistol, pistol of bronze tromblon, safety of hammer, marked
(rather awkwardly) HJ Bury on the two sides of the box.
There is
no identifiable punch on the transmitted photographs.
There
was many Bury in Liege with 18th and 19th century, of which a Henry-Joseph
between 1791 and 1813 according to Neue Stockel.
According to Jarlier/Buigné, the aforementioned Henry-Joseph is located between
1780 and 1810 (he is written 1880-1810 but it is quasi certainly about a typing
error).
At all
events, the weapon dates well from the period 1790-1810 and can thus be allotted
to Henry-Joseph Bury.
The
Museum of Weapons of Liege has a blunderbuss or a espingole carrying the same
signature: this weapon was manufactured between 1780 and 1810.
GP and HPH
Identification 3226
Here a
curious revolver of calibre not specified, with interior hammer (also called
uneven) and folding trigger, whose handle can slide in order to reduce the
obstruction of the revolver. Blocking/releasing of the handle is probably done
via the button located on the right of framework. Door of side loading on the
right. Stem swivelling in line with cylinder.
Markings
Lion on
PV: test with the smoke-free powder between 1898 and 1968
There
should be other punches between the rooms of cylinder (in particular a ELG on
star in crowned oval).
C
crowned: it would be normally a punch of controller, but it is hardly possible
since this kind of punch with crown was used between 1853 and 1877. However, the
weapon is after 1898. Thus not identified until now.
Thanks
to the searchs of Max, one can allot this system of handle sliding to Michel
Thonon son, arms manufacturer with Corinhez-Housse, which deposited in 1909 four
patents, including 220480 (on November 16th, 1909) which corresponds in the
broad outlines to the weapon presented. The latter has however an improvement in
the shape of a button on the right side of the framework for - probably since we
were not pleased to have the machine in hand - blocking and freeing the handle.
In the original version of the patent of Michel Thonon, there is a system of
spring(s) which blocks the handle in position high or low, but not the
aforementioned button.
GP with MAX and Alan.
Identification 3227
Here a
shotgun juxtaposed to external hammers, stick pistol, engravings, quality and
completion very average.
Markings
Peron:
inspection since 1853
1 kg
440: weight of the barrel, of use since 1924
I:
yearly letter for 1930 (provided)
M under
star: countermark of the controller between 1877 and 1968
Lion on
PV: test with the powder lives of 1898 to 1968
EL:
provisional test since 1852
ELG on
star in crowned oval: acceptance between 1893 and 1968
F under
star: countermark of the controller between 1877 and 1968
12-65
in omega lying: gauge nominal and length of the casing since 1924
18.4
and 18.3: gauge in mm since 1889
"Nitro
Proved" and "Fire Armes" (sic) C° Liege: I do not find them in the file of the
registered trademarks in Belgium. There was well an English version of
Manufacture of Liège of firearms in 1901, but she is “Liege Fire Arms
Manufacturing C° Ltd”.
Does
the typing error "ARMES", therefore in French, instead of "ARMS", challenge to
me ..... would be a forgery?
Nitro
Proved exists well in England, but for rifles and rifles military (1916).
Consequently, I have the feeling which these English mentions are booby-traps…
but I do not affirm it either.
GP with the assistance of HPH and Max.
Identification 3229
Voici une arme longue relevant du système Remington Rolling Block « mis à la
sauce liégeoise ». Son propriétaire aurait pu préciser s’il s’agit d’un canon
lisse ou rayé. Il se pourrait aussi qu’il y ait des marquages sous le canon (=
dévisser la vis du fût) concernant notamment le calibre. Je présume que le
levier à droite sert à démonter l’arme en deux pièces.
Perron : inspection depuis 1853
S sous étoile : contremarque de contrôleur entre 1877 et 1968
FDC traversé d’une flèche vers la droite : peut-être François Dumoulin (actif
depuis 1870 selon une source française) ou François Dumoulin et Cie, mais j’ai
des doutes sérieux car
1° selon la même source française, la marque de François Dumoulin déposée en
1881 est une flèche vers la droite traversant les lettres DDF (et donc pas FDC
comme ici);
2° la société François Dumoulin et Cie a été inscrite au Banc d’épreuves de 1908
à 1968, ce qui ne correspond pas avec le marquage suivant :
GD en lettres anglaises : en principe Gilles Decortis de Cheratte, qui a déposé
huit brevets entre 1851 et 1875, aucun ne se rapportant à l’engin en question.
Jarlier/Buigné situe sa période d’activité entre 1856 et 1887.
Donc rien de certain, que du contraire..
GP avec HPH et MD
Identification 3231
Here a
traditional shotgun juxtaposed to external hammers, stick pistol and key of
opening Top Lever.
Markings
EL:
provisional test since 1852
Choke
16.6 over 16.6: chokes barrels, of use of 1910 to 1924
Peron:
inspection since 1853
U and P
under star: countermarks of controllers of 1877 to 1968
16 C in
vertical rhombus: indication of the gauge of 1898 to 1924
ELG on
star in crowned oval: meaning of 1893 to 1968
ACCT in
a circle: should be the mark of the manufacturer of barrels Lucien Clément of
Nessonvaux.
V in
square: not identified
Choke
Bore: indicate that the barrels are chokes.
In all
logic, this rifle was manufactured between 1910 and 1924.
GP
Identification 3232
Revolver
with percussion with box frame and black powder.
The
barrel is with 8 sides with small dovetail front sight inserted and bead cut in
the amount of hammer.
The
smooth cylinder is with six chimneys.
The
stick east seems it of only one part, out of wood of walnut finely squared. It
ends in a metal cap.
The
whole of the metal parts carries engravings of sheets of vine branch.
Punches
The
weapon carries the punches of the proofhouse of Liege, namely:
ELG on
star in an oval: final acceptance, of use of 1846 to 1893.
U
crowned: countermark of the controller, of use of 1853 to 1877.
Period
of manufacture: between 1853 and 1877.
Markings
The
weapon carries the mark of its inventor, namely D. RENOTTE Breveté (Patent)
Dieudonné RENOTTE, Joseph, was an arms manufacturer with COVER LEZ LIEGE since
1853. He was a then “platinor” (manufacturer of lock) to Liege. During the
period of 1856 to 1859, it deposits 5 Belgian patents for:
-
Improvements with pistols and rifles.
-
Modifications and improvements brought to firearms with DANDOY.C.
-
Modifications made to the system of firearms revolver with DANDOY C.
- A
double trigger with departure continuous or at will applicable to the revolvers,
with DANDOY. C manufacturer of weapons.
- An
addition with the closing of the weapons revolvers (with DANDOY.C.)
DANDOY
Célestin manufacturer of weapons was registered with the proofhouse of 1846 to
1865. From 1865 to 1867, it created company DANDOY Célestin & Co.
GG †
Note : You can see another weapon very similair here : Renotte Dieudonné Joseph
Identification 3235
Voici un classique revolver à percussion centrale se rapprochant du modèle
Constabulary mais dans ce cas-ci, la crosse est arrondie. Portière de chargement
à droite, baguette d’éjection pivotante dans l’axe du barillet. Six coups,
calibre non précisé, sans doute un .320. Sûreté de chien à gauche. Anneau de
calotte. Canon en partie octogonal et rond.
Les marquages
ELG sur étoile dans ovale couronné : acceptation entre 1893 et 1968
Double p sous étoile : sans doute la contremarque d’un contrôleur entre 1877 et
1968
C couronné sur le barillet : non identifié ; ce ne peut être la contremarque
d’un contrôleur d’avant 1877 puisque l’arme a été fabriquée au plus tôt en 1921…
EF ou EP (?) sur la carcasse côté gauche : pourraient être les initiales d’Emile
Fraipont, inscrit au Banc d’épreuves de Liège entre 1903 et 1927, fabricant
d’armes, rue Monulphe 45 à Liège.
LA : sans doute la marque du fondeur, non identifié
SF dans un cercle en dessous des plaquettes de crosse : sans doute la marque
déposée par la société Schroeder Frères le 26 février 1921. La fabrique d’armes
SPRL Schroeder Frères, Max et Charles Edouard, rue Simonon 8 à Liège, a été
inscrite au Banc d’épreuves de Liège entre 1919 et 1938. Ils succèdent à leur
père Edouard. Ils avaient une succursale à Bruxelles, rue des Comédiens, 26.
Le fait que les initiales EF soient apparentes peut nous mener à penser que
l’arme a quasi certainement été vendue par Emile Fraipont : les initiales SF
dans un cercle sont en effet dissimulées sous les plaquettes de la poignée. Mais
je ne suis pas certain à 100% qu’il s’agisse bien d’une part des initiales EF,
d’autre part que le SF dans un cercle soit bien la marque de Schroeder Frères.
GP avec l’aide d’Alan
Identification 3236
For understanding well it is necessary to look at the two united series of page:
- Casimir Lefaucheux Arquebusier 1802-1852 pages 83 to 86 of Gerald Lautissier
- The saga of the shotguns Lefaucheux pages 23 to 28 of JC Mournetas
This single stroke rifle was produced by Casimir Lefaucheux in Paris, in the
workshops of the 5 street JJ Rousseau.
Rifle resulting from patent 5138 of January 28th, 1833 and addition of March
13th, 1833.
The patent and milked addition of the key of swing thus of the opening of the
barrels.
The chimneys are placed generally directly on the barrels, here they are on the
rocker what is rarer (more difficult has to realize)
GUILLAUME
Identification 3237
Here a revolver of quality, calibre .320 to five shots,
round barrel, foldable trigger, bearing on the plates letters CC interlaced of
Charles Clément.
Markings
R
crowned: rifled bore, of 1894 to 1968
ELG on
star in crowned oval: acceptance between 1893 and 1968
W
under star: countermark of controller of 1877 to 1968
C
under crown: not identified, perhaps the mark of the founder?
17345: undoubtedly the number of manufacturing
Charles Philibert Joseph Clement, gunmaker, street Chéri 37 in Liege was registered
with the proofhouse of Liege of 1906 to 1914. From 1883 to 1912, year of its
death, it deposited not less than 35 patents, but a priori, none seems to relate
to the weapon presented here.
He also deposited 14 trademarks between 1893 and
1912.
GP
Identification 3239
Here a
musketon with percussion with its long bayonet, marked GB for Belgian
government. Its owner was well inspired by us to communicate the main features
of them: overall length 114 cm, length of the gun 75 cm, weight 3.165 kg, gauges
17.5 mm, eight stripes.
Apparent
markings are
GB:
Belgian government
JP 50 in a hexagon: probably a marks of controller.
N overcome of a rhombus: probably a marks of controller.
There
are undoubtedly still other punches under the barrel.
There is
also a macaroon in the stick, undoubtedly that of the "Manufacture d’Armes de l’Etat"
in Liege.
One as
twice sees the date of 1850, more as probably that of the manufacturing of the
weapon.
One sees
also a number and the date of 1835 on the butt plate: it is perhaps about a
recovery of an older weapon.
As there
is no regimental marking of the Belgian army, one can conclude that this weapon
was perhaps intended for the Belgian customs. The National museum of the Customs
in Antwerp exposed there is a few years a musketon in one of its windows. It
would be necessary to be able to compare it to be sure of my assumption.
GP
Identification 3240
Here a superimposed rifle with two triggers of Belgian
manufacturing.
Markings
Peron: inspection since 1853
ELG on star in crowned oval: acceptance between 1893
and 1968
1kg259: weight of the barrel, since 1924
P turned over under star: countermark of a controller
since 1877
Lion on PV: test with the smoke-free powder since 1924
CHOKE 16.9: barrel choke between 1924 and1968
16-70 in omega lying: gauge nominal and length of the
room, since 1924
EL: provisional test since 1852
Y under star: countermark of a controller since 1877
"p": if what I read is well a "p", it is the yearly
letter of 1937
JS: undoubtedly the punch of the manufacturer of
barrel. Already met but not identified yet.
"Canon demi block best fluid steel" on a paper: I
suppose that it is the type of steel used. I do not know where figure this
registration nor which is its exact contents.
31951 must be the number of manufacturing of the
weapon.
GP
Identification 3241
Here a pistol with percussion with two superimposed
barrels, marked H. Petitjean Liege. It could have been used for hunting to
complete big game. The rather rudimentary manufacturing made me somewhat think
of a manufacturing of the 20th century, but which am I…
Markings
Peron: inspection since 1853
R crowned (if I see well, but I am not sure whole):
countermark of a controller between1853 and 1877
ELG on star in oval: acceptance between 1818and 1893
X under star: countermark of a controller between 1877
and 1968 and
v pennies star: countermark of a controller between
1877 and 1968: there is contradiction with the R crowned mentioned above (in so
far as it is indeed a R crowned of course…)
16.0: diameter of the barrel? To check by the owner
3382: the number of the weapon
I believe to distinguish letters EL, but I am not sure:
it could be a question of the provisional test, since 1852
JD or JF (in a letter) D: undoubtedly the manufacturer
of the barrel; not identified.
The name of Henri Petitjean is included in
Jarlier-Buigné and Stockel, but it is about an active arms manufacturer between
1770 and 1790 (even 1799 according to Stockel). What thus does not correspond
with the machine presented, since it is with percussion and thus posterior of
more than twenty years to the working life evoked above. The known parts of this
arms manufacturer are of a definitely higher quality, as one can see them on the
following link:
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20p/a%20petitjean%20fr.htm
A contrario, one of the weapons presented in the link
in question is also a pistol with percussion… but of definitely higher
manufacture.
The purists will have as noticed as Liege east written
on the barrel of this pistol with a grave accent (orthography in force since a
decree of the Regent in 1946), whereas one would have more expected an acute
accent… But it is not that a remark of (old EM…) purist… the more so as it is
well-known that the orthography of the proper names “fluctuated” with the wire
of the centuries, in Liège/Liége too!
In conclusion, doubts remain on the attribution of this
part with Henri Petitjean (fine 18th century). Unless it is about a later
homonym, unknown until now. Or of a skilful forger, using the name of a
well-known arms manufacturer in Liege end of the 18th century, since having
provided weapons to the revolutionists…
GP with the assistance of HPH.
Identification 3242
Voici une peu courante carabine mixte type Warnant à deux canons superposés et
deux détentes mais un seul chien, au-dessus en .22 Flobert long, en dessous en 9
mm Flobert court, donc à percussion annulaire dans les deux cas. Je présume que
le canon supérieur est rayé, l’inférieur lisse. L’heureux propriétaire aurait pu
le signaler.
Les marquages
Perron : inspection depuis 1853
ELG sur étoile dans ovale couronné : acceptation entre 1893 et 1968
FL 9 m C : calibre 9 mm Flobert court
8.6 : diamètre intérieur du canon inférieur
FL .22 L : calibre .22 Flobert long
5.4 : diamètre intérieur du canon supérieur
A sous étoile, AB sous étoile, J sous étoile : contremarques de contrôleurs
(entre 1877 et 1968)
Je crois aussi distinguer le L faisant partie du poinçon EL pour l’épreuve
provisoire, depuis 1852.
Il est bien dommage que le fabricant/armurier n’ait
pas mentionné son nom sur cette carabine sortant du commun.
Je ne m’explique pas la présence de deux détentes ; je ne crois pas qu’il
s’agisse d’une détente type stecher sur une telle carabine de jardin…mais ce
n’est pas impossible non plus. L’heureux propriétaire pourrait-il éclairer ma
lanterne ?
GP
Identification 3243
Voici un classique fusil de chasse juxtaposé de fabrication belge, à chiens
extérieurs, platines arrière, crosse anglaise, gravure sommaire. Marqué Boston
sur la bande entre les deux canons.
Les marquages
Perron : inspection depuis 1853
16 sur C dans losange vertical : calibre de 1898 à 1924
R et L sous étoile : contremarques de contrôleurs de 1877 à 1968
EL : épreuve provisoire depuis 1852
ELG sur étoile dans ovale couronné : acceptation entre 1893 et 1968
VJ : peut-être le poinçon du canonnier, non identifié.
La marque Boston ne figure pas dans le petit livre vert des marques déposées en
Belgique.
Il existe bien un (beau) type de damas appelé Boston, généralement destiné aux fusils de luxe, mais on ne peut pas dire que ce fusil-ci soit « de luxe ».
Ses canons ne sont apparemment pas en damas ; il faudrait les soumettre à un
traitement (ne serait-ce que du jus de citron, paraît-il) pour s’en assurer.
Donc mystère… ou tentative de tromperie ?
GP avec l’aide de HPH
Identification 3244
Here an
outline of juxtaposed rifle whose only barrels are completed and tested.
Markings
Peron:
inspection since 1853
S and V
under star: countermarks of controllers of 1877 to 1968
PV on
Lion: test with the powder lives between 1898 and 1968
3441:
undoubtedly the number of manufacturing of the barrels
EL:
provisional test since 1852
Choke
18.4: barrel choke to 22 cm of the breech, 1924 to 1968. I wonder why the number
18.4 is not on the same line as the word choke. Especially, this kind of wording
of choke was applied of 1924 to 1968. Mystery… because in contradiction with the
three following punches:
P 1 K
325.5: weight of the barrel of 1892 to 1924
12 C in
vertical rhombus: gauge of 1898 to 1924
D= 70 mm
over 20.6: length of the room and diameter of the barrel after the optional test
with the smoke-free powder, of 1892 to 1924.
There is
also an odd letter (on the left of V under star), which I believed being Greek
and which could thus have been a yearly letter. But there is problem since I do
not recognize any Greek letter (I know, a long time ago that I studied the
Greek…). And the Greek yearly letters were used between 1948 and 1961 if my
information is good. However, like say the last three punches, rifle goes back
at the latest to 1924.
According to the colleagues of the group of identifications and eminent other
specialists, it could be a question of a letter B badly struck; the letter B is
the yearly letter of 1923, therefore that could “stick”. But without guarantee
none.
GP with the assistance of HPH and PHL
Identification 3245
I would
like to thank well the owner of this pin revolver for having had kindness and
the intelligence to draw up the list of all the markings found on his revolver.
That facilitates much work and saves my tired eyes… If all the applicants of
information did as much of it, the life would be beautiful…
Here
thus a pin revolver with opened box, octagonal barrel and side rod of ejection
of the casings of very average quality, undoubtedly gauges 7 mm and out of run
cast iron of them, as one manufactured some much in Liège, still a long time
after the appearance of the smoke-free powder.
Markings
ELG on
star in crowned oval: acceptance between 1893 and 1968
R
crowned: rifled bore, in application between 1894 and 1968
J under
star (three times): countermark of the controller since 1877 until 1968
AS under
star, a plate of grips: one could think of the well-known arms manufacturers
Albert Simonis or Albert Spirlet, but it is not very probable, on the one hand
being given the “quality” of the weapon, on the other hand owing to the fact
that these initial is under a plate of stick, therefore non visible.
FG?: not
identified
W:
undoubtedly the founder.
GP
Identification 3246
Here a
pin revolver of gauge not specified (undoubtedly 7 or 9 mm) with a shield to
protect the pins. The octagonal barrel is surmounted by a band finishing in
language of snake on both sides of the hammer; the band is fixed at the breech
by two vertical screws. One thinks of the revolvers designed by the Merolla
brothers, but on their premises, the screws are horizontal. See the site
littlegun
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20m/a%20merolla%20fils%20fr.htm
There
are only few markings:
ELG on
star in oval: acceptance until 1893.
L under
star: countermark of a controller between 1877 and 1968
AS under
star, a plate of stick: one could think of the well-known arms manufacturers
Albert Simonis or Albert Spirlet, but it is not very probable, owing to the fact
that these initial is under a plate of stick, therefore not visible.
GP
Identification 5103
The weapon
It is about a revolver with central percussion and top break of type S&W.
The lock seems me to be of hammerless type although the photographs are hardly explicit in this place!! I thus have a doubt?
The opening is practiced by pressing two pedals placed on both sides console, system corresponding to a patent n° 064421 of the 8.3.1884 of Léonard WARNANT-FRANQUET (see technical drawing in appendix).
The rifled bore is round with a rectangular higher band carrying a back sight in half-moon.
The grooved cylinder is with 5 rooms of gauge 8mm.
Punches
The weapon carries the lawful punches of the proofhouse of Liege, namely:
ELG on star in a crowned oval: final acceptance post 1893.
AR crowned: countermark of the controller post 1877.
R crowned: rifled bore, of use of 1894 to 1968.
Marks
SEL under a small triangle: isn't the reading of this mark certain, that could just as easily be BEL?? This mark was not discovered in the book of markings arms manufacturers of Liège!
CAL 8/MM: gauge weapon.
L crowned: this mark should be the mark of the foundry in theory having produced this cylinder but this information could not still be confirmed.
396: serial number.
11: marking of workshop?
The holster
These weapons of average manufacture were produced in thousands of specimens for export. They were sold most of the time by batches of 100 parts. They were never accompanied by any holsters. Your specimen is not thus origin but subsequently added in the country of purchase of your weapon.
GG
Identification 5104
The weapon
It is about a shotgun to central percussion.
The steel barrels are smooth and juxtaposed.
They with gauge 12 (18,2 mm) and are chokes.
Locks are “ahead” with hammers external and key of opening between those.
The trigger is double under trigger guard.
The stick out of wooden of walnut (?) is of type “pistol”.
Punches
The weapon is struck punches of the proofhouse of Liege, namely:
ELG on star in an oval under crown: final acceptance post 1893.
Peron: inspection post 1853.
T and V spangled: countermarks of the controllers post 1877.
EL in English letters: provisional test, of use of 1852 to our days.
12 C in a rhombus: gauge, of use of 1898 to 1924.
17,4: gauge in mm, of use of 1889 to our days.
18.0 chokes barrels gauged in mm to 22 cm of the breech and the mouth.
18.0 In use of 1910 to 1924.
The manufacturer
129: should be a serial number?
The punches teach us that the weapon was manufactured in LIEGE between 1910 and 1924.
New Haven Arms is probably a trademark fictitious because it does not appear in documentation, just like the word INTERCHANGEABLE which us was already announced on the mark REGENT ARMS quite as unknown!
These fictitious denominations were not rare in LIEGE at this time, they were probably intended to mislead the customs of the countries of South America large importers of weapons of Liege. It’s also probable that the import duties were important! The traffic of weapons was currency running fine of the XIXe beginning of the XXe century.
For the small history, documentation gives a report on a mark REGENT allotted in 1913 to the manufacturer SCHNORRENBERG W & Fils street of the South, 5 in Brussels. We are unaware of if there is correlation between these elements?
GG
Identification 5105
L’arme
Il s’agit d’un pistolet à percussion centrale, à répétition manuelle et à bloc descendant qui ressemble assez fort au bien connu pistolet REFORM.
A la différence prêt qu’ici le bloc descend du haut vers le bas.
Les 4 canons sont superposés et le calibre n’a pas été communiqué, du 6,35 vraisemblablement.
Comme les poinçons l’indiquent, l’arme a été fabriquée à LIEGE. Elle ne porte aucune marque de fabricant ni de brevet ce qui semble indiquer une copie ou une adaptation.
La recherche dans les brevets est demeurée vaine.
L’arme porte une jolie gravure en fond creux représentant à gauche une couronne (royale ?) et des feuilles de chênes et à droite une croix pattée entourée de deux glaives.
Les plaquettes en bois de noyer ( ?) sont également sculptées de feuilles de chênes.
Les poinçons
L’arme porte les poinçons réglementaires du banc d’épreuves de Liège, à savoir :
ELG sur étoile dans un ovale couronné : acceptation définitive post 1893.
Double B inversés sous une étoile : contremarque du contrôleur post 1877.
R couronné : canons rayés, en usage de 1894 à 1968.
PV surmonté d’un lion stylisé : épreuve à la poudre sans fumée, en usage de 1898 à 1968.
Les marques
Aucune marque de fabricant n’est visible sur l’arme.
ND – ML et FL sous une plaquette, sont des marques de sous-traitant non identifiés.
GG
Identification 5106
L’arme
Il s’agit d’un fusil de chasse à canons juxtaposés.
Ces canons en damas de type OXFORD sont à âme lisse et de calibre 12 ou 17,4 mm.
Les platines sont de type « en avant », les chiens sont extérieurs, la clé TOP entre ceux-ci.
Je n’ai pu déchiffrer le motif de la plaque de couche (en corne moulée ou en gutta-percha)
Les poinçons
L’arme porte les poinçons réglementaires du banc d’épreuves de Liège, à savoir :
ELG sur étoile dans un ovale couronné. : Acceptation définitive post 1893.
Perron : inspection post 1853.
12 C dans un losange : calibre, en usage de 1898 à 1924.
SCH surmonté d’un lion stylisé : épreuve facultative à la poudre sans fumée (Schultze),
En usage de 1891 à 1968.
17,4 : calibre en mm : en usage de 1889 à nos jours.
P 1K535, 2 : poids du canon pouvant tirer des poudres sans fumée (arme lisse), en usage
De 1892 à 1924.
D = ?????? (illisible sur la photo) Longueur de la chambre en mm et diamètre en mm
Après épreuve facultative à la poudre sans fumée.
En usage de v1892 à 1924.
Les marques
HENRI PIEPER A LIEGE : marque du fabricant, rue des Bayards à LIEGE (voir sa fiche sur le site).
Canon OXFORD Extra (si bien lu ?) Grand Prix de Paris 1880 : sans commentaires.
Marque du chevalier BAYARD : marque du fabricant ci-dessus.
SPECIALE EMPLOI POUDRE BLANCHE : se disait de la poudre vive par opposition à la poudre noire.
GG
Identification 5107
L’arme
Il s’agit d’un fusil de chasse à percussion centrale
Les canons en damas sont juxtaposés et à âme lisse.
La fermeture se fait à l’aide d’une clé placée sous le pontet de sous-garde.
Les platines sont « en arrière » et les chiens extérieurs à percuteurs apparents.
La crosse en bois de noyer ( ?) est façonnée à l’anglaise.
Les poinçons
Elle est frappée des poinçons du banc d’épreuves de Liège, à savoir :
ELG sur étoile dans un ovale vertical : acceptation définitive en usage de 1846 à 1893.
Perron : inspection post 1853.
M et Z étoilés : contremarques des contrôleurs post 1877.
EL en lettres anglaises : épreuve provisoire, en usage de 1852 à nos jours.
18.2 17.4 : canons chokés : calibrés en mm à 22 cm de la culasse et à la bouche.
En usage de 1898 à 1910.
Période de fabrication : les poinçons ci-dessus, nous indique une période de fabrication allant de 1898 à 1910.
Marquages
SYSTEME H. ROCHATTE BREVETE A PARIS : indique que cette arme est au système ROCHATTE mais j’ignore de quoi il s’agit n’ayant pas accès aux brevets français.
N° 4993 : numéro de série.
HR dans un cercle : marque de l’inventeur.
Fabrication : il était très fréquent que les industriels armuriers français du XIXe siècle viennent faire fabriquer leurs armes à LIEGE ou la main d’œuvre était nombreuse, qualifié et moins cher que partout ailleurs !
GG
Identification 5108
Hello,
It is indeed a French rifle, here are the answers of the specialists.
Alain
Hello
It is indeed an ordinary punch of test black powder of Saint Etienne.
But I don’t know to what corresponds this 17.2.
To my knowledge, gauge 18 doesn’t exist ….
To give an idea: gauge 12 fact a little more than 18 mm (gun without choke, as the machine which undoubtedly occupies us), a gauge 16 fact a little less than 17 Misters the 17.2 COULD be a gauge 16 (with the accent on the conditional one).
As for LRE: there are thirty pages of arms manufacturers whose name starts with L… in Jarlier/Buignier: not the time of all to read!
Oscar
Good evening,
Rifle with percussion of the ID 1918 is a traditional piston rifle of cal 16 manufactured in Saint Etienne.
The punch of test is that in function between 1869 and 1879, which is very late for a rifle with percussion, and makes me think of a rifle export or of draft, because it is of very ordinary quality, without squares, engraving and with a barrel in iron.
The mark of gunner LRE is unknown for me.
Jacques (France)